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	<title>Comments on: Vancouver&#8217;s new convention centre: &#8220;Better than we expected.&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.francesbula.com/developer-world/vancouvers-new-convention-centre-better-than-we-expected/</link>
	<description>Vancouver city life and politics</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:26:28 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/developer-world/vancouvers-new-convention-centre-better-than-we-expected/comment-page-1/#comment-16326</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2235#comment-16326</guid>
		<description>First of all, let&#039;s be honest about the &quot;green&quot; roof. Much of the time it is a brown roof and it is an expensive stupid pointless waste of money. It is not even environmentally responsible, really. If there is enough sunlight there to grow weeds, then there is enough to have photovoltaic panels. But instead of having an energy self sufficient building, you are paying extra to grow hidden weeds in a city that already has a lush profusion of vegetation. This makes no sense

Secondly, there is the question of the site itself. The waterfront is fantastic in Vancouver primarily because it has not been given over to developers. Why then locate a building whose reason for being is entirely based upon the creation of vast interior spaces, in the one place where such a usage comes at the expense of public amenities? 

Thirdly there is the weak design itself. The convention center looks and feels like it was designed on a computer without anyone actually coming to grips with how this massive mess would relate to the experience of pedestrians walking down the street. Yes I know it has all these boring empty terraces, but it honestly does nothing to enliven the street. If you are walking by, it essentially is a vast no man&#039;s land, an urban desert in the heart of the city. A better design would have elevated it and put street friendly uses at ground level, or better still, find a different place for it entirely where it did not devour a prime public location.

Once the novelty wears out people will wonder why Vancouver could not do better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, let&#8217;s be honest about the &#8220;green&#8221; roof. Much of the time it is a brown roof and it is an expensive stupid pointless waste of money. It is not even environmentally responsible, really. If there is enough sunlight there to grow weeds, then there is enough to have photovoltaic panels. But instead of having an energy self sufficient building, you are paying extra to grow hidden weeds in a city that already has a lush profusion of vegetation. This makes no sense</p>
<p>Secondly, there is the question of the site itself. The waterfront is fantastic in Vancouver primarily because it has not been given over to developers. Why then locate a building whose reason for being is entirely based upon the creation of vast interior spaces, in the one place where such a usage comes at the expense of public amenities? </p>
<p>Thirdly there is the weak design itself. The convention center looks and feels like it was designed on a computer without anyone actually coming to grips with how this massive mess would relate to the experience of pedestrians walking down the street. Yes I know it has all these boring empty terraces, but it honestly does nothing to enliven the street. If you are walking by, it essentially is a vast no man&#8217;s land, an urban desert in the heart of the city. A better design would have elevated it and put street friendly uses at ground level, or better still, find a different place for it entirely where it did not devour a prime public location.</p>
<p>Once the novelty wears out people will wonder why Vancouver could not do better.</p>
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		<title>By: Glissando Remmy</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/developer-world/vancouvers-new-convention-centre-better-than-we-expected/comment-page-1/#comment-16302</link>
		<dc:creator>Glissando Remmy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2235#comment-16302</guid>
		<description>&quot;When you have told anyone you have left him a legacy, the only decent thing to do is to die at once.&quot;
- Samuel Butler

Maybe this is what Vancouver needs. Maybe we need to let the legacy makers extinguish themselves. Oh, wait; they do that in a grand ceremony every four years. But, I’m off topic.

On topic:  Vancouver people and the side effects of living in a rainy climate. Read on. 

On June 20th and 21st, 2005, Council heard from 57 speakers at the Public Hearing to consider the proposed Rezoning of the site at 86 SE Marine Drive (Wal-Mart). During one of this days (20th if I am not mistaken) a DPB meeting took place at 500 Plaza (across from city Hall). On the table was the complete DP application for the VCC West. 
Beasley Era. 
In the audience, more people sitting on the DPB and Advisory Panel than spectators or I may say in this instance, witnesses. We were talking a $500,000,000 + project (at that time) funded with public money (we now know that it approaches a total cost of $900,000 to 1 billion). Did the people of Vancouver pretend to care about this haemorrhage of public money into a Big Empty? No, the majority of civic activists and future Vancouver Vision voters were cramming the City Hall chambers debating if Busby&#039;s future Wal-Mart building on Marine Drive is green enough for their blood. No wonder three and a half years later they voted in a bunch of green phonies. People of Vancouver had no ...perspective then, but pretend to have a vision, now; vision as in “hallucination” maybe.
Much Ado About Nothing. 
At the end of the day Wal-Mart found their way into Vancouver through an open back door policy and now it is doing just fine on the former Costco site, near Boundary and Grandview. As for the VCC West ...well, half a billion dollars over budget! Big deal!   “It’s our time to shine, people! It’s only money, not your left kidney” David Podmore might say. That of course would be true if you were not an organ donor...which we’ll all be, soon after the Games. 

As for my opinion on the Big “Living Roof” Empty, I’ll leave you with a dear literary passage: 

HILLS LIKE WHITE ELEPHANTS
&quot;They look like white elephants,&quot; she said.
&quot;I&#039;ve never seen one,&quot; the man drank his beer.
&quot;No, you wouldn&#039;t have.&quot;
&quot;I might have,&quot; the man said. &quot;Just because you say I wouldn&#039;t have doesn&#039;t prove anything.&quot;
The girl looked at the bead curtain. &quot;They&#039;ve painted something on it,&quot; she said. &quot;What does it say?&quot;
&quot;Anis del Toro. It&#039;s a drink.&quot;
&quot;Could we try it?&quot;
 
HILLS LIKE WHITE ELEPHANTS is a short story by Ernest Hemingway. It was first published in the 1927 collection Men without Women.

We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;When you have told anyone you have left him a legacy, the only decent thing to do is to die at once.&#8221;<br />
- Samuel Butler</p>
<p>Maybe this is what Vancouver needs. Maybe we need to let the legacy makers extinguish themselves. Oh, wait; they do that in a grand ceremony every four years. But, I’m off topic.</p>
<p>On topic:  Vancouver people and the side effects of living in a rainy climate. Read on. </p>
<p>On June 20th and 21st, 2005, Council heard from 57 speakers at the Public Hearing to consider the proposed Rezoning of the site at 86 SE Marine Drive (Wal-Mart). During one of this days (20th if I am not mistaken) a DPB meeting took place at 500 Plaza (across from city Hall). On the table was the complete DP application for the VCC West.<br />
Beasley Era.<br />
In the audience, more people sitting on the DPB and Advisory Panel than spectators or I may say in this instance, witnesses. We were talking a $500,000,000 + project (at that time) funded with public money (we now know that it approaches a total cost of $900,000 to 1 billion). Did the people of Vancouver pretend to care about this haemorrhage of public money into a Big Empty? No, the majority of civic activists and future Vancouver Vision voters were cramming the City Hall chambers debating if Busby&#8217;s future Wal-Mart building on Marine Drive is green enough for their blood. No wonder three and a half years later they voted in a bunch of green phonies. People of Vancouver had no &#8230;perspective then, but pretend to have a vision, now; vision as in “hallucination” maybe.<br />
Much Ado About Nothing.<br />
At the end of the day Wal-Mart found their way into Vancouver through an open back door policy and now it is doing just fine on the former Costco site, near Boundary and Grandview. As for the VCC West &#8230;well, half a billion dollars over budget! Big deal!   “It’s our time to shine, people! It’s only money, not your left kidney” David Podmore might say. That of course would be true if you were not an organ donor&#8230;which we’ll all be, soon after the Games. </p>
<p>As for my opinion on the Big “Living Roof” Empty, I’ll leave you with a dear literary passage: </p>
<p>HILLS LIKE WHITE ELEPHANTS<br />
&#8220;They look like white elephants,&#8221; she said.<br />
&#8220;I&#8217;ve never seen one,&#8221; the man drank his beer.<br />
&#8220;No, you wouldn&#8217;t have.&#8221;<br />
&#8220;I might have,&#8221; the man said. &#8220;Just because you say I wouldn&#8217;t have doesn&#8217;t prove anything.&#8221;<br />
The girl looked at the bead curtain. &#8220;They&#8217;ve painted something on it,&#8221; she said. &#8220;What does it say?&#8221;<br />
&#8220;Anis del Toro. It&#8217;s a drink.&#8221;<br />
&#8220;Could we try it?&#8221;</p>
<p>HILLS LIKE WHITE ELEPHANTS is a short story by Ernest Hemingway. It was first published in the 1927 collection Men without Women.</p>
<p>We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/developer-world/vancouvers-new-convention-centre-better-than-we-expected/comment-page-1/#comment-16224</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2235#comment-16224</guid>
		<description>Well, in this case, I think form follows function.  
If you have a low ceiling over a vast convention floor - you&#039;d end up with all the ambiance of a parking garage (plus you would lose flexibility in housing your exhibits).

Although - the structure could have been put underground at Larwill Park and the current Spectrum/Costco site as was proposed by Bing Thom during the competition for the first round of proposals.  Concord Pacifc enventually withdrew its bid, as did Marathon Properties (current site) and Concert Properties won with its hotel hotel/convention centre east of Canada Place (which fell through beacuse of contract negotaitions - doubt that Concert wanted to take the risk of proceeding - so the Province had to go it alone - and hey - I guess there was some risk (in building over the water) because the cost blew up!)  Anyways, it was Tourism Vancouver and others who wanted the iconic views and objected to having a split conevention centre - half at Canada Place and the other half linked by rapid transit near GM Place.  Hence the big box on the waterfront.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, in this case, I think form follows function.<br />
If you have a low ceiling over a vast convention floor &#8211; you&#8217;d end up with all the ambiance of a parking garage (plus you would lose flexibility in housing your exhibits).</p>
<p>Although &#8211; the structure could have been put underground at Larwill Park and the current Spectrum/Costco site as was proposed by Bing Thom during the competition for the first round of proposals.  Concord Pacifc enventually withdrew its bid, as did Marathon Properties (current site) and Concert Properties won with its hotel hotel/convention centre east of Canada Place (which fell through beacuse of contract negotaitions &#8211; doubt that Concert wanted to take the risk of proceeding &#8211; so the Province had to go it alone &#8211; and hey &#8211; I guess there was some risk (in building over the water) because the cost blew up!)  Anyways, it was Tourism Vancouver and others who wanted the iconic views and objected to having a split conevention centre &#8211; half at Canada Place and the other half linked by rapid transit near GM Place.  Hence the big box on the waterfront.</p>
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		<title>By: MB</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/developer-world/vancouvers-new-convention-centre-better-than-we-expected/comment-page-1/#comment-16203</link>
		<dc:creator>MB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2235#comment-16203</guid>
		<description>The new CC is indicative of what&#039;s wrong about Vancouver and it&#039;s collective idea of what makes a fine city.  Bigness is seen as its main asset.  There is even a parallel between this and the criticism of NEFC.  Everyone wants more (park space, building space ...), but then place little value on quality.

Bigger is NOT better.  It&#039;s only a novelty, and given its montrous porportions to the street and to human beings I can only hope the street trees grow fast and hide parts of the facade, though that&#039;s doubtful given that they are suspended 15 metres above the ground in concrete boxes hanging below the viaduct.

So much money went into its bigness and site challenges that there was little left for the human scale, finely crafted articulation, quality materials, public art and perhaps even a study of its potential non-convention uses when high energy costs make jet travel and cruising (therefore international conventions and tourism) unaffordable.  This will surely occur before the CC warranty expires.  I&#039;m amazed at how many politicians and their lobbyists do not factor peak oil into their supposedly iron clad economic projections on projects obviously reliant in the long term on cheap transportation costs.

It&#039;s a good thing the CC is relatively transparent; imagine if its huge walls were wrought in blank concrete panels or dull grey sheet metal instead of glass.  I now have a new found appreciation for Zeidler&#039;s five sails.

This building played it safe, and that contradicts its steep price.  It&#039;s apparent that avoiding risk was a primary design program element, therein we get blandness.  Perhaps it could be made home to local artists once the conventions drop away beyond the next decade.  At least they&#039;d make it far more exciting than it is now, and they could have their own farm on the roof.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The new CC is indicative of what&#8217;s wrong about Vancouver and it&#8217;s collective idea of what makes a fine city.  Bigness is seen as its main asset.  There is even a parallel between this and the criticism of NEFC.  Everyone wants more (park space, building space &#8230;), but then place little value on quality.</p>
<p>Bigger is NOT better.  It&#8217;s only a novelty, and given its montrous porportions to the street and to human beings I can only hope the street trees grow fast and hide parts of the facade, though that&#8217;s doubtful given that they are suspended 15 metres above the ground in concrete boxes hanging below the viaduct.</p>
<p>So much money went into its bigness and site challenges that there was little left for the human scale, finely crafted articulation, quality materials, public art and perhaps even a study of its potential non-convention uses when high energy costs make jet travel and cruising (therefore international conventions and tourism) unaffordable.  This will surely occur before the CC warranty expires.  I&#8217;m amazed at how many politicians and their lobbyists do not factor peak oil into their supposedly iron clad economic projections on projects obviously reliant in the long term on cheap transportation costs.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a good thing the CC is relatively transparent; imagine if its huge walls were wrought in blank concrete panels or dull grey sheet metal instead of glass.  I now have a new found appreciation for Zeidler&#8217;s five sails.</p>
<p>This building played it safe, and that contradicts its steep price.  It&#8217;s apparent that avoiding risk was a primary design program element, therein we get blandness.  Perhaps it could be made home to local artists once the conventions drop away beyond the next decade.  At least they&#8217;d make it far more exciting than it is now, and they could have their own farm on the roof.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/developer-world/vancouvers-new-convention-centre-better-than-we-expected/comment-page-1/#comment-16183</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2235#comment-16183</guid>
		<description>Urbanismo is only one person with a single opinion.  Most of the people I&#039;ve spoken to like the new convention center.  I happen to think it&#039;s very, very nice, world class, in fact.  Then again, many Vancouverites wouldn&#039;t know world class if it came up and bit them on the ass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Urbanismo is only one person with a single opinion.  Most of the people I&#8217;ve spoken to like the new convention center.  I happen to think it&#8217;s very, very nice, world class, in fact.  Then again, many Vancouverites wouldn&#8217;t know world class if it came up and bit them on the ass.</p>
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		<title>By: bill from the southside</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/developer-world/vancouvers-new-convention-centre-better-than-we-expected/comment-page-1/#comment-16177</link>
		<dc:creator>bill from the southside</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2235#comment-16177</guid>
		<description>anyway...Francis good article.  I think your point regarding how this project will be subject to debate in the city for some time is dead on - and it should raise debate.  As a building in Vancouver this has taken some significant steps forward into some new territory.

Is it perfect, no...  could it be, no...will it be?  That remains to be seen - I think it has the potential to be an amazing addition to this city.  I am less concerned about the &quot;au currant&quot; Zaha Hadid-ness and more interested in seeing its success and limits over time.  Like a new shirt and tie lets wear it for a bit before we pass final judgement.  

As a machine through which many visitors will initially/partially experience the City - drinks in hand- its good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anyway&#8230;Francis good article.  I think your point regarding how this project will be subject to debate in the city for some time is dead on &#8211; and it should raise debate.  As a building in Vancouver this has taken some significant steps forward into some new territory.</p>
<p>Is it perfect, no&#8230;  could it be, no&#8230;will it be?  That remains to be seen &#8211; I think it has the potential to be an amazing addition to this city.  I am less concerned about the &#8220;au currant&#8221; Zaha Hadid-ness and more interested in seeing its success and limits over time.  Like a new shirt and tie lets wear it for a bit before we pass final judgement.  </p>
<p>As a machine through which many visitors will initially/partially experience the City &#8211; drinks in hand- its good.</p>
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		<title>By: Mira</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/developer-world/vancouvers-new-convention-centre-better-than-we-expected/comment-page-1/#comment-16176</link>
		<dc:creator>Mira</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 21:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2235#comment-16176</guid>
		<description>To JJJ, 
By GR you meant Gregor Robertson? Is he posting here? Just asking. 
To ALL posters,
Urbanismo raised some good points here, that some of you cannot look in the face or maybe possibly comprehend. The man is passionate about his trade because he cares, and he got the knowledge too to back up his passion. What have you got? If it&#039;s hurting too much, take a relaxant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To JJJ,<br />
By GR you meant Gregor Robertson? Is he posting here? Just asking.<br />
To ALL posters,<br />
Urbanismo raised some good points here, that some of you cannot look in the face or maybe possibly comprehend. The man is passionate about his trade because he cares, and he got the knowledge too to back up his passion. What have you got? If it&#8217;s hurting too much, take a relaxant.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Keam</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/developer-world/vancouvers-new-convention-centre-better-than-we-expected/comment-page-1/#comment-16175</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Keam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2235#comment-16175</guid>
		<description>I believe ECE workers for the most part are better equipped to teach children conflict resolution skills than the average parent who is thrust into the role without any training whatsoever. If you&#039;re using the hourly wage as an indicator, then they&#039;re 15 times more equipped than an average parent (joke).

Anyway, that&#039;s a big derail and if you want to discuss it further, feel free to email me. I&#039;m easy to find.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe ECE workers for the most part are better equipped to teach children conflict resolution skills than the average parent who is thrust into the role without any training whatsoever. If you&#8217;re using the hourly wage as an indicator, then they&#8217;re 15 times more equipped than an average parent (joke).</p>
<p>Anyway, that&#8217;s a big derail and if you want to discuss it further, feel free to email me. I&#8217;m easy to find.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Just Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/developer-world/vancouvers-new-convention-centre-better-than-we-expected/comment-page-1/#comment-16174</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Just Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 18:17:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2235#comment-16174</guid>
		<description>Chris I not sure if that last post was sarcastic or not but if it wasn&#039;t it&#039;s more disillusioned then even a GR post. Kids raised by professional caregivers ? (you mean someone with an ECEC that is easily obtained and working for ~$15/ph is going to do a better job or raising a child then their parents would of).  
I have very little hope that the next generation will be better behaved then the last one.  Heck the pinnacle of behaviour would&#039;ve happened around the leave it to beaver generation.  Walk into any classroom today as an observer for a couple of days and tell me society will be entering a new golden age of civility. Sure they will enjoy technologically superior lives then we will but I have no doubt that their lives will be much less civil.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris I not sure if that last post was sarcastic or not but if it wasn&#8217;t it&#8217;s more disillusioned then even a GR post. Kids raised by professional caregivers ? (you mean someone with an ECEC that is easily obtained and working for ~$15/ph is going to do a better job or raising a child then their parents would of).<br />
I have very little hope that the next generation will be better behaved then the last one.  Heck the pinnacle of behaviour would&#8217;ve happened around the leave it to beaver generation.  Walk into any classroom today as an observer for a couple of days and tell me society will be entering a new golden age of civility. Sure they will enjoy technologically superior lives then we will but I have no doubt that their lives will be much less civil.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Keam</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/developer-world/vancouvers-new-convention-centre-better-than-we-expected/comment-page-1/#comment-16173</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Keam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2235#comment-16173</guid>
		<description>&quot;I do find the personal attacks tedious on this blog &quot;

Hear, hear. Get your own blog (or post your thoughts there) if you want to rant. If one can&#039;t articulate their ideas without belittling other people, any contribution made will be discounted into worthlessness. Thank goodness the next generation has been (mostly) raised by professional caregivers in their formative years.  Their ability to disagree with each other without cruelty or bully-behaviour is a refreshing change from the atmosphere that seems to dominant adult discourse these days. Or, it could be that the Internet makes everybody a &#039;tough guy&#039;. Put people face to face and they tend to revert to some semblance of civility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I do find the personal attacks tedious on this blog &#8221;</p>
<p>Hear, hear. Get your own blog (or post your thoughts there) if you want to rant. If one can&#8217;t articulate their ideas without belittling other people, any contribution made will be discounted into worthlessness. Thank goodness the next generation has been (mostly) raised by professional caregivers in their formative years.  Their ability to disagree with each other without cruelty or bully-behaviour is a refreshing change from the atmosphere that seems to dominant adult discourse these days. Or, it could be that the Internet makes everybody a &#8216;tough guy&#8217;. Put people face to face and they tend to revert to some semblance of civility.</p>
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