82 responses so far ↓

• 1 Dan Cooper // Jul 28, 2010 at 4:30 pm

  Make that a 300% increase. Using either figure, though, the moral seems to be: build it and they will come.

• 2 IanS // Jul 28, 2010 at 4:40 pm

  Out of all the options – Thurlow, Burrard and Hornby – I think Hornby is probably the least harmful. I question the description of car traffic on that street as medium, but it’s probably lighter than either Burrard or Thurlow, and the latter is probably already backed up a bit by the delays going on to the Bridge off Pacific.

  I do wonder which side of the street it will be on, though. The east side probably makes more sense, as it won’t block any businesses IIRC. Should be interesting.

• 3 IanS // Jul 28, 2010 at 4:45 pm

  Should add, I like the connection of the two seawalls. That’ll make for a nice ride from False Creek, through Coal Harbour and back along Hornby.

• 4 Tiktaalik // Jul 28, 2010 at 4:47 pm

  Well that percentage increase is impressive. Good news for Vancouver area cyclists!

  I’m in Toronto this week on holidays and I’ve been lent a bicycle by friends and so I’ve been able to compare the bicycling experience of both cities.

  Coincidentally they’ve just put in an extremely contentious bike lane here on Jervis St. I have to say the pot hole filled, dangerous Jervis experience has been quite the contrast to the luxurious Dunsmuir bike lane. When compared to Toronto Vancouver is definitely doing things right.

• 5 Agustin // Jul 28, 2010 at 5:15 pm

  “I regret having to post another piece of bicycle news.” Why? What’s wrong with bicycle news?

• 6 weaver // Jul 28, 2010 at 5:39 pm

  This is so needed. I have just biked along Hornby from Nelson to Dunsmuir, and had to stop 4 times, as cars were blocking the bike lane. Three were waiting for other cars to exit parking spaces so they could take them, but the exiting cars were unable to get into the traffic flow. The fourth was, with several others, using the bike lane as overflow while waiting to get into a right turn lane.

  To the guy in the grey SUV who drove into the bike lane behind me and followed me from way before Robson to Georgia – I don’t usually bike that slowly. I was doing it just for you!

• 7 seasonally adjusted // Jul 28, 2010 at 5:58 pm

  I’m predicting umbrella sales go up 300% in October from a few months prior. Don’t get giddy, this is a warm weather bike city.

• 8 spartikus // Jul 28, 2010 at 6:01 pm

  But…but…someone on the other thread said no one used it.

  You mean someone in the comment section of a blog lied? That’s possible…is it?

  Why? What’s wrong with bicycle news?

  It makes some individuals heads explode.

• 9 Terrence // Jul 28, 2010 at 8:20 pm

  Only a delusional ideologue would believe that over 4,000 bike riders use the Burrard Bridge – a delusional ideologue who never uses the Bridge.

  I regularly walk or drive across Burrard Bridge – there are never more bikes than pedestrians, NEVER, EVER.

  If the City of Vancouver says this they are massively inflating the number, just as they are massively inflating the number of alleged on Dunsmuir.

  And we must never take into account that July 2010 will be the third driest July on record, and is thus not representative of regular usage. How bike riders many use the endlessly empty bike lanes in November , December and January? Very few, if any.

• 10 Agustin // Jul 28, 2010 at 8:46 pm

  Terrence says: “And we must never take into account that July 2010 will be the third driest July on record, and is thus not representative of regular usage. How bike riders many use the endlessly empty bike lanes in November , December and January? Very few, if any.”

  You are looking at this entirely backwards.

  How many cars were on the streets before the streets were built? How many cars would be on our streets if they weren’t paved, but all dirt? Let’s go a bit further, as you have: how many cars would be on the streets in November, December, and January, if they weren’t paved?

  There are many, many cars on the roads because the roads are built for cars.

  There are relatively few (although the quantity is growing) bicycles on the roads because the roads were made for cars. If the roads are changed to be better suited for bicycles, there will be more bicycles. (Look at any of a variety of cities around the world that demonstrate this, if you don’t believe Vancouver’s numbers.)

• 11 spartikus // Jul 28, 2010 at 9:03 pm

  If the City of Vancouver says this they are massively inflating the number

  Will Terrence have the courage of his convictions to call on opposing politicians to fire the responsible men and women of the City of Vancouver’s Engineering Dept. for faking cycling statistics?

• 12 spartikus // Jul 28, 2010 at 9:12 pm

  on opposing politicians…

  …who must surely come to power in the next election, what with the electorate informed of an incredible and corrupt conspiracy…a conspiracy revealed by Terrence!

• 13 Terrence // Jul 28, 2010 at 9:20 pm

  Augustin – you are looking at this at this entirely backwards.

  The City has a large number of extant and endlessly empty bike lanes – endlessly empty even in the third driest July ever. The Burrard Bike lanes have been in place for 12 months – they are in fact built; they are there; you can go and see them; and a few bike riders actually use them.

  The number of bike riders who use the Burrard Bridge in the winter is very small fraction of the very small number of riders that now use it. Most bike riders are fair weather bike riders – they would not dream of getting wet or cold while riding their blessed sacred bicycle. They drive or take transit when they commute to town in the winter, and in much of the fall and spring.

  It is ideological nonsense to build even more bike lanes based on summer usage.

  The figures the city has published about bike riders are absolute rubbish – if they were even remotely true, you would always see many, many more bike riders on Burrard Bridge – but you can never see more bike riders than pedestrians, never, regardless of the time of day. I have even heard a number of bike riders say the same thing – very few bike riders use Burrard Bridge; they have never seen as many riders as the nonsense the city claims use the Bridge bike lanes.

• 14 Terrence // Jul 28, 2010 at 9:22 pm

  Your presumptuousness is risible, spartikus , risible.

  You have not a the smallest clue as to what I have told, and to whom I have told it.

• 15 Declan // Jul 28, 2010 at 9:52 pm

  I don’t see the Burrard bridge much, but I do see a lot of Dunsmuir most days and there’s no doubt that bike traffic is far, far higher than before the lane was put in. From what I can tell usage still seems to be climbing as well.

  Even as someone who doesn’t own a bike, Dunsmuir St. seems a lot more pleasant with the lane in than it did before when it felt a bit like a freeway punching through the heart of downtown.

  Based on my informal count of how many bikes I normally see go through on a traffic light cycle at various times of the day, I’d say that 2000 bikes a day using some part of the lane is probably a fair estimate.

  For a North-South route, Hornby does seem like the obvious choice.

  —
  As an aside, I’m not sure the argument that bike lanes shouldn’t be built because people ride less in the winter makes any more sense than arguing that we shouldn’t build lanes for cars because fewer people drive in the middle of the night.

  —
  As a final note, please do continue to post bicycle news. Where else would we get it? From the crack Vancouver Sun corps whose only contribution was the stunning revelation that not every driver obeys every traffic sign, especially when they are new?

• 16 Bill McCreery // Jul 28, 2010 at 10:04 pm

  What’s the panic? Why does all this have to be done ‘right now’? Surely these bike lanes can be built after proper public process & a thorough, sober design process. The back & forth above about summer vs. winter ridership illustrates my point. Can we not even wait 12 months to see what the seasonal cycles are?

  @ Ian. Hornby is a problematic option. @ the south end, Pacific to Drake, the City 2 years ago widened the grass boulevard in front of Anchor Point 3. There are now 5 parking spaces on the west side of that block + +/-8 on the other side because of the loading @ 2 restaurants + 1 loading zone. The 3 condos either side with a total of +/-450 units all have 75% parking & no visitor parking. Umberto will be putting a tower @ his restaurant as soon as he gets the money together I understand. Concert properties have perhaps the most irresponsible & excessive proposal @ 1304 Hornby St. to inject 31 storeys, 12.44 FSR [allowable 5.0, with heritage density transfer, 5.5 to 5.75 FSR], 196 units, 75% parking, no amenities, no public space, no nothing of any redeemable quality ON A 100′ X 130′ SITE! This big mud pie is a disaster waiting to happen so why not add the complications of a bike lane to make it worse.

  @ the other end, Dunsmuir to Pender, there are 3 if not 4 parking garages on both sides of the street in one block. That should be an interesting free for all. the one with the heaviest metal wins.

  When do they start construction? Is this really a public process or is it another con?

• 17 spartikus // Jul 28, 2010 at 10:09 pm

  You have not a the smallest clue as to what I have told, and to whom I have told it….
  
  The circle is now complete…and should I strike you down, you will only become more powerful than I can possibly imagine!

• 18 Tessa // Jul 28, 2010 at 10:38 pm

  @Terrance: As far as I can tell, you are using anecdotal evidence to condemn as inflated numbers gathered by actually counting the cyclists rather than driving past once or twice a day and saying “gosh I hardly see any cyclists at all!” Obviously the city of vancouver could save a lot of money on its studies and of course provide more accurate information if it just drove past rather than actually using counters and doing the hard work of finding reputable data.

  Of course the bike lane doesn’t *look* busy. Let’s divide 4,000 by two per direction, then by 15 hours based on the hours of sunlight right now (even though many people bike in the dark – I’m being conservative), then by 60 to find out how many cyclists are on the bridge in the one minute it takes to cross in a car: The answer is, on average, there are 2.2 cyclists per direction on the bridge every minute.

  Last time I walked across the bridge, I expect I saw more than 20. A 10 minute walk-ish walk would suggest that’s about right. But it goes to show that when we base our perceptions on flawed, anecdotal data, you get flawed results. When you do the math, and when you actually sit there for a while and count the cyclists, it becomes pretty obvious the city’s numbers are right on target and *gasp* the whole thing isn’t a massive con to waste taxpayers money. Who’d have thought.

  Also, when it comes to Vancouver’s other bike lanes, I think you must never actually look at them. Last time I wondered past 10th I saw 10 bicyclists in a just two or three minutes near Fraser. It’s actually quite busy if you take the time to go look.

  And while I’ve never been much of a cyclist while living on the coast as I’ve mostly lived on the North Shore, I’ll be joining the two-wheeled hordes very soon after I cross the inlet. And trust me, I’ll be riding come December – I got used to riding in the occasional spring flurry when when I lived in Fort St. John.

• 19 Keith Ippel // Jul 28, 2010 at 10:42 pm

  Just to insert data into the discussion of ridership and weather:

  This past June we had our wettest spring Bike to Work Week. During that time we logged our highest count of riders past our commuter stations, a 65% increase over last year….in the rain. We also had over 950 corporate teams and 45% female riders.

  The mix of improved infrastructure, more accessible cycling education, and a move toward cultural acceptance is revealing a tipping point for mainstream cycling. Wet weather riding will never be as high as a beautiful day like today, but there’s no doubt cycling is on the rise in a significant way.

• 20 spartikus // Jul 28, 2010 at 10:48 pm

  Surely these bike lanes can be built after proper public process & a thorough, sober design process.

  Feeling thus, ror reasons outlined, will you call for the Dunsmuir and Burrard Bridge bicycle lanes to be shut down?

• 21 Richard // Jul 28, 2010 at 11:49 pm

  @Terrence

  So, we shouldn’t build things that are only heavily used for a months? I guess no more outdoor pools, hiking trials, ski hills or beaches. Lets get rid of those golf courses as well. How about those stadiums that are empty most days of the year? The PNE is only for a few months, lets get rid of that as well.

• 22 gmgw // Jul 29, 2010 at 12:36 am

  It should be pointed out that drivers coming from the West End (or the North Shore) along Pacific, who want to get to the southbound side of the Granville Bridge, generally turn left at Hornby (hence the delayed signal) and scoot up the 1300 block to Drake– right turn/right turn and they’re on the Bridge. (Drivers heading downtown from the Burrard Bridge also routinely use Hornby as an alternative to the multiple bottlenecks along Burrard.) This already creates artificially elevated traffic volume on that block, especially at certain times of the day. If the city proceeds with their utterly insane plans to demolish the on/off-ramps at the north end of the Bridge– said ramps grant Granville Bridge access from/to Pacific– the 1300 block Hornby will become a bottleneck (but only one more part of the car-strangled schemozzle that will be the blocks leading to and from the Granville Bridge on Howe, Granville & Seymour– not to mention cross-streets like Drake and Davie). Even now drivers who are too timid to perform the Indy-style standing start now necessary to get onto the Burrard bridge southbound from Pacific use the Hornby/Granville bridge route as an alternate. Thanks to the takeover of the curb lane by bikes, getting onto the Burrard Bridge from Pacific is now a far more dangerous maneuver than it used to be, and it was already dangerous (and at certain times of the day it creates a backup extending well down Pacific and up Thurlow). Cars lacking good acceleration and drivers lacking nerves of steel and/or an excellent sense of timing and/or the ability to instantly judge, with a single glance, the status of the light at Burrard & Pacific are advised not to try it.

  Given all this, I can only shake my head at this bike-lane-on-Hornby plan. Nice idea, I guess; bad location. If the primary object of Engineering is create as much congestion as possible on the streets near the north end of the Granville Bridge, they certainly appear to be doing everything possible to ensure success.
  gmgw

• 23 Chris B // Jul 29, 2010 at 7:13 am

  “Most bike riders are fair weather bike riders – they would not dream of getting wet or cold while riding their blessed sacred bicycle. They drive or take transit when they commute to town in the winter, and in much of the fall and spring.”

  Wow.. tell that to the bike riders who go in Ottawa in the Winter. Yes it is only 20% of the number in the summer, but I am pretty sure if they are going out in -25 and snow/ice, people in Vancouver can and will handle it.

• 24 rf // Jul 29, 2010 at 7:19 am

  I think I noticed a legitimate reason for not putting a barrierred bike lane on Hornby just this morning.
  The entire south side of the street for about 3 blocks (before Georgia) is completely filled with movie trucks.
  The Courthouse, Robson square and the Art Gallery are some of the most frequently used filming locations.
  There are blocks and blocks of movie trucks parked their quite regularily, particularily during the morning commute.
  I guess they would have to look at the North side of the street, but even then…. how are the Wedgewood and Hotel Van going to feel about cabs and transport vehicles not having anywhere to stop with customers.

  It’s a bad idea

• 25 Richard // Jul 29, 2010 at 8:10 am

  @rf
  Get serious. We live in a city not a movie set. It would be ridiculous to avoid doing things in the city just because the movie industry does something for a few days a year. There is no reason why they can’t park along Georgia Street.

  A few days a go, a movie truck was lazily parked half in the bike line. This type of illegally parking is one of the reasons why separated bike lanes are needed.

• 26 mezzanine // Jul 29, 2010 at 8:40 am

  “What’s the panic? Why does all this have to be done ‘right now’?”

  IMO by building the lane on Hornby, we will bridge the bike lane ‘network gap’ and have a direct, protected link from strathcona and beyond, thru downtown onto Kits.

  http://www.humantransit.org/2010/02/the-power-and-pleasure-of-grids.html

  Hornby’s advantages are evident from the city link – no interference with transit, it’s not a designated truck route and we already have a painted bike lane there.

  I can see movie trucks serving VAG in the future being staged on Howe street, once trolley bus routes are returned to granville, or even by putting up a temp parking restriction on the west side of Hornby by Peak Perfomance/Artigiano.

• 27 Chris Keam // Jul 29, 2010 at 8:46 am

  The issue isn’t how many bikes there are on the bridge… it’s how few cars there are in the city when you actually take a step back and consider how much space is devoted to ensuring there are no delays whatsoever in their travel.

  Go stand at Broadway and Cambie on any day, at any time outside of rush hour and you can see how there are times when, looking eastward, all six lanes are nearly devoid of any traffic beyond parked cars. You can do the same experiment at Broadway and Fraser. Blocks and blocks of blacktop all the way to Clarke and beyond, with just a few cars. In fact, almost any major street will be close to empty for short periods of time at any time of year. Certainly my residential street (11th Ave E), and the Tenth Ave bike route are regularly home to numbers of bikes far in excess of the amount of cars on the street.

  Critics of bike lanes and other initiatives that promote more sustainable transportation opportunities should stop searching vainly for evidence of bicycle gridlock, and start taking a more jaundiced view of the incredible waste of resources we have allowed in the quest to eliminate delays during a couple hour a day of peak demand. Start thinking of all that pavement as potential land for housing, parks, community gardens, etc, and the profligacy of a transportation network built to satiate the automobile’s requirement to monopolize large amounts of public space is brought into sharp relief.

  If we cast half as critical an eye towards automobile infrastructure as we do towards improved transit and active transportation amenities, this city would be awash in parks, pools, and other expensive seasonal attractions and still have money to spare.

• 28 rf // Jul 29, 2010 at 9:06 am

  I’m not saying a few days a year. I’m saying more like 50-100 days a year (Sparty should be able to check this one). And you can’t park on Georgia if you are filming at the courthouse.
  That industry has had a routine going for over a decade filming in that area. I think that will be the most vocal lobby if they decide to throw concrete around the curb lane.

  Georgia street has it’s own problems. There’s bus stops every block (i don’t think the busses use Hornby much) You block of one and you are basically blocking off two, leaving only 1. You tell me to get serious and then suggest Georgia? Wtf?

  So many businesses get affected by this stuff. Can you imagine what it’s like for a hotel. You have cabs and cars being dropped off in front, people unloading luggage, and all of the sudden they have to park in the middle of traffic and dodge a bikes and concrete barriers just to get in?

• 29 rf // Jul 29, 2010 at 9:08 am

  I hope they never put busses back on Granville. That would be the ultimate improvement. Pedestrian only, open space, take down the trolley lines. A truly signature street for the city to devlop as a destination.

• 30 IanS // Jul 29, 2010 at 9:10 am

  @Bill,

  I agree that Hornby isn’t a perfect solution. However, when one compares it to the other apparent options – Burrard or Thurlow – it does seem to be the least damaging, which is all I was really saying. Yeah, it’ll cause a lot of harm, but, IMO, less harm than the alternatives.

  I wonder why Granville wasn’t under consideration. Given that most of it has been shut down for a while now, it almost seems like that would be the least painful way of incorporating a bike lane.

• 31 Chris Keam // Jul 29, 2010 at 9:17 am

  “So many businesses get affected by this stuff. Can you imagine what it’s like for a hotel. You have cabs and cars being dropped off in front, people unloading luggage, and all of the sudden they have to park in the middle of traffic and dodge a bikes and concrete barriers just to get in?”

  Off the top of my head… downtown hotels that have off-street or similar areas for luggage and passenger drop-off:

  Hotel Vancouver, Hyatt, Wall Centre, Waterfront, Coast Hotel, Pan Pacific, Bayshore, Pacific Palisades, Four Seasons. Let’s be specific. How many hotels are truly affected by a bike lane on Hornby?

• 32 rf // Jul 29, 2010 at 9:37 am

  The Wedgewood was the one that came to mind as very affected. Cascadia and The Landis further west were the others (there are tour buses parked outside of them on Hornby all the time). So 3 busy hotels without a drop off/turn-in area. And the Hotel Van turn-in can not accomodate buses. They park on Hornby and Georgia as well.
  Le Soleil (sheraton) is on the other side of Dunsmuir.

• 33 rf // Jul 29, 2010 at 9:38 am

  And don’t forget the Art Gallery. They have a small turn indent lane for buses to drop off groups of kids and tourists. How do they access it if there is a concrete barrier?

• 34 Jason King // Jul 29, 2010 at 9:42 am

  Wow, bike usage increases in the summer….who would have thought. I challenge all you bike “enthusiasts” to actually sit on Dunsmiur street for an hour….now count how many bicyclists go by…don’t worry, you won’t have to use more than one hand. Now count how many cars are sitting there idling during lunch hour/rush hour as a result of one less lane….this entire undertaking is based on “feel good” politics that have NOTHING to do with reality. Even on the nicest days in this city there are a HANDFUL of people using the bike lanes….just wait until the rain returns….you’ll see usage drop right back to where it was before….there were 3.9% of the population biking to work before this started, I have no doubt that with an INDEPENDENT study, that number will not increase .01% as a result of the bike lanes. Thanks for wasting our tax dollars city council….

• 35 Dan Cooper // Jul 29, 2010 at 9:47 am

  @Richard, who inquired, “So, we shouldn’t build things that are only heavily used for a months?”

  Ooo! Can we at least get rid of all those permanent fences outside restaurants, which block half the sidewalk year round but are used only three or four months of the year? Please? Or at least make them get out a socket wrench and take the nasty things down when not in use?

• 36 Chris Keam // Jul 29, 2010 at 9:48 am

  Jason:

  Hyperbole is a million times better than boring old reality, but suggesting there are less than five cyclists per hour using the Dunsmuir bike lane is so easily refuted that no one is going to waste five minutes let alone an hour to disprove your assertion.

• 37 Chris Keam // Jul 29, 2010 at 9:50 am

  RF:

  Other cities have addressed similar issues. My guess is we can also find solutions that can work.

• 38 IanS // Jul 29, 2010 at 10:06 am

  @Chris,

  “Hyperbole is a million times better than boring old reality”

  That made me chuckle.

• 39 mezzanine // Jul 29, 2010 at 10:35 am

  “And don’t forget the Art Gallery. They have a small turn indent lane for buses to drop off groups of kids and tourists. How do they access it if there is a concrete barrier?”

  I would look to how the dunsmuir bike lane interacts with the bus stop by VCC as a possible answer. the bikes have a small speed hump and the bus shelter is moved to a pedestrian island closer to the traffic lane, but allows for access from the sidewalk.

• 40 mezzanine // Jul 29, 2010 at 10:39 am

  WRT granville, I see granville as being for both transit and as a defacto ‘protected’ bike lane from car traffic, at least. A good example of this is with the bus lanes in paris, being used for buses, bikes, motorbikes and taxis.

  http://www.humantransit.org/2010/07/paris-the-street-is-ours.html

• 41 Bill McCreery // Jul 29, 2010 at 10:47 am

  @ Sparks.
  “Feeling thus, ror reasons outlined, will you call for the Dunsmuir and Burrard Bridge bicycle lanes to be shut down?”

  I support bike lanes. I was one of the TEAM Park Commissioners that installed the 1st bike lane in Vancouver on the Stanley Park Seawall in 1974-75. A good network of city-wide bike lanes has evolved from there.

  What I’m not supporting now is the haste with which this next phase is being done & the lack of adequate public input, as well as enough design time to properly think things through to minimize unintended consequences.  In addition, this hasty process is needlessly and destructively pitting neighbour against neighbour. That is not how healthy communities are created.

• 42 Bill McCreery // Jul 29, 2010 at 10:55 am

  @Ian.

  ” I wonder why Granville wasn’t under consideration. Given that most of it has been shut down for a while now, it almost seems like that would be the least painful way of incorporating a bike lane.”

  Good ? Ian. There is the width there because of only 2 lanes for buses.

  But, your ? reinforces my concern about inadequate process, both public & design. Why are you not being given an opportunity by the City to come up with suggestions like this? Why are all the options, this included, being examined & evaluated?

• 43 IanS // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:05 am

  @Terrence,

  Given your post, I doubt you’ll accept these figures, but I think it’s worth pointing out that, on the City’s numbers, there was about a 7% increase in bike use on the Burrard Bridge in the latter part of June 2010 from the latter part of June 2009. AFAIK, this is the only data available to judge whether the bike lane has resulted in an increased level of bike use. While not the 26% or 30% increase touted by the bike lobby or the City at various times, 7% is, IMO, a significant increase. And, unlike those “estimates”, it has the advantage of being real.

  @Bill,

  I doubt anyone at the City cares much about my suggestions, but I assume the have considered and disregarded Granville Street already, as it isn’t even mentioned as a possibility. I would have thought the incorporation of bike lanes as Granville Street slowly came back online after the renovation would have been a relatively painless way to go.

• 44 Joe Just Joe // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:34 am

  Why do people keep spelling it Clarke, it’s Clark no e on the end. I noticed some members do that with Concord as well, it is not Concorde.
  Anyways I see the point of this connection but I’m curious as to why with both Dunsmir and now Hornby they have chosen streets that lead into downtown and have not chosen streets that exit downtown. It would appear on paper that you would want to encourage people to come into the core while making it harder for them to exit. At least from a commercial aspect.

• 45 Larry Manetti // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:41 am

  Hornby is the obvious choice. This north/south route is the final piece of the downtown puzzle, and I’m glad they will not be siphoning us down Burrard which has way too much going on. It’s a reasoned choice which is the least intrusive for business. Essentially, from Pacific to Nelson, we’re talking about parking spots and not a hell of a lot of retail. North of that you’re in the full-blown snarl, so what’s the difference as a driver. Most of the core businesses/offices wouldn’t dream of arguing that they require street parking next to their places of business in the most dense portion of the entire city! This decision is sensible planning.

• 46 Terrence // Jul 29, 2010 at 1:01 pm

  Tessa at Jul 28, 2010 at 10:38 pm – you don’t have a clue as what I know about statistics and gathering data. Your presumptuousness is juts as risible as spartikus’s is.

  And you do not have a clue as to how many other knowledgeable people have pointed out the silliness of the City of Vancouver’s “numbers” regarding bike riders.

  But don’t let reality get in the way of what you “think”.

  Richard at Jul 29, 2010 at 8:10 am said “A few days a go, a movie truck was lazily parked half in the bike line. This type of illegally parking is one of the reasons why separated bike lanes are needed.”

  Do you have any idea at all as to how stupid you make bike worshippers look when you make ridiculous comments like this one? It is pretty easy to make bike worshippers look ridiculous, and you excel at it.

• 47 rf // Jul 29, 2010 at 1:27 pm

  How will the bikers like it when the pedestrians get together and clog up the bike lanes with their own version of Critical Mass?

  Quick, someone come up with a good name for it. How about “Irony Cubed”

• 48 Bill McCreery // Jul 29, 2010 at 1:28 pm

  @ Ian.
  “I doubt anyone at the City cares much about my suggestions, but I assume they have considered and disregarded Granville Street already, as it isn’t even mentioned as a possibility.”

  Evidently they don’t but, that does not mean ‘they’ are right. They’re not. & you prove the point when you have to say, in the absence of the City making the various options available for public comment [one would think this to be a fundamental step in a valid public consultation process], have to say: “I assume they have considered and disregarded Granville Street already”.

  It’s my understanding the detailed Hornby St. design work has already been done. In which case, this so called attempt @ consultation is a charade & a waste of time & taxpayers money.

  I am sure the owners of the numerous restaurants, 4 hotels, VAG, various condos with loading bays, parking garages, etc. who are directly affected would like to be privy to these detailed design plans before they are implemented. I am not an expert in municipal law but, suspect, if they are not, the City may well be liable for subsequent damages.

• 49 IanS // Jul 29, 2010 at 1:33 pm

  @Bill,

  “It’s my understanding the detailed Hornby St. design work has already been done. In which case, this so called attempt @ consultation is a charade & a waste of time & taxpayers money.”

  That would be pretty much my expectation.

• 50 Agustin // Jul 29, 2010 at 1:34 pm

  Terrence, Jason, etc.: let’s try this approach. I’m going to assume that we can agree on the basic premise:

  - people need to get around town
  - the population of Vancouver is growing, and will continue to grow

  What would be your solution to allow an increasing number of people to get around town? Please describe:

  - the mode(s) of transportation that should be encouraged
  - the infrastructure that would need to be put in place
  - capital and operating costs for the infrastructure
  - cost to the user of the infrastructure (e.g., with busses, there is a fee; with cars, there is a cost to owning a car; with bicycles, there is a cost to owning a bicycle)
  - environmental impacts of the infrastructure
  - socioeconomic impacts of the infrastructure

  Then describe how your solution is better than one that does not include separated bicycle lanes.

• 51 Agustin // Jul 29, 2010 at 1:42 pm

  rf: As a cyclist, I believe that Critical Mass in Vancouver (I have not seen it first hand anywhere else) is a bad idea.

  Please realise that just like all drivers aren’t like-minded, neither are all cyclists.

  We are all just people trying to get from one place to another.

• 52 rf // Jul 29, 2010 at 2:57 pm

  Agustin;
  Like almost all things social and political in Vancouver, we are just copying another city and deluding ourselves to think it’s our own.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Mass

  And If you say, “Mr. Newsom!” to Gregor Robertson, he will turn around and think you are talking to him. Gregor spends so much time looking at his political history and initiatives, he actually thinks they are his own.

• 53 Chris Keam // Jul 29, 2010 at 2:58 pm

  “And you do not have a clue as to how many other knowledgeable people have pointed out the silliness of the City of Vancouver’s “numbers” regarding bike riders.”

  The statistics are in line with other cities initiating similar programs. Perhaps the conspiracy is far vaster than we realize, or perhaps it’s pretty hard to gerrymander a mechanical counter and the numbers are accurate but displeasing to anti-cycling critics?

  I have yet to see a reasonable deconstruction of the current numbers that’s backed up by anything other than somebody’s personal opinion that they simply can’t be true, because they don’t jive with that person’s expectations and prejudices.

• 54 Chris Keam // Jul 29, 2010 at 3:03 pm

  Joe:

  my mistake on Clark/Clarke. I used to live near there so I have no excuse. Oops.

• 55 Terrence // Jul 29, 2010 at 3:16 pm

  Chris Keam on Jul 29, 2010 at 2:58 pm – perhaps you could do something to educate yourself, rather then mindlessly repeating your own expectations and prejudices.

  But, by all means lets have more separated bike lanes- as Metro Vancouver said – they always result in MORE cyclist – vehicle accidents – guess who wins and who gets hurt…

• 56 Chris Keam // Jul 29, 2010 at 4:17 pm

  It’s not about me Terrence. You don’t believe the numbers. Tell us why they don’t add up.

  cheers,
  CK

• 57 Richard // Jul 29, 2010 at 4:33 pm

  @Terrence
  How about actually furthering the debate and understanding by sticking to facts instead of attacks.

• 58 Terrence // Jul 29, 2010 at 5:26 pm

  Chris Keam on Jul 29, 2010 at 4:17 pm – do your own research, if you know how to.

  Richard on Jul 29, 2010 at 4:33 pm
  Right back at you – How about actually furthering the debate and understanding by sticking to facts instead of attacks.

• 59 Chris Keam // Jul 29, 2010 at 7:10 pm

  “do your own research, if you know how to. ”

  I’m comfortable with the current statistics. You’re not. You’ve provided no reasons, zero facts, and little rationale for your skepticism. You need to do more than throw around vague accusations and expect other people to disprove your allegations.

  As I’ve already noted, Vancouver’s cycling figures are consistent with other jurisdictions embarking on similar programs. So, for me, at present, I don’t take issue with the statistics as presented, nor do I feel compelled to do your research for you.

• 60 spartikus // Jul 29, 2010 at 7:45 pm

  You’ve provided no reasons, zero facts, and little rationale for your skepticism

  Indeed. It’s far past put up or shut up time. If Terrence can’t provide links to the arguments of these alleged “knowledgeable people” then I personally would feel comfortable in dismissing him as a troll.

  He, like Alex Tsakumis, has accused the Engineering Dept. of the the City of Vancouver of professional misconduct.

  It’s a serious charge. It demands serious evidence.

  @rf

  Like almost all things social and political in Vancouver, we are just copying another city and deluding ourselves to think it’s our own.

  As a long time fencing partner, I have developed a certain amount of affection for you, rf, but you simply have got to stop making stuff up. Agustin never said Critical Mass was a Vancouver original….and funnily enough neither does the Vancouver version of Critical Mass.

  Personally I would have no problem with CM….if they admitted they had achieved their original aim and are now just a moveable street party. Which is a good thing. One of the loudest criticisms over time we’ve heard about this city is it’s “no fun” reputation.

  Which is to say, plan your route. Let the cops know. Let the public know.

  I certainly think it’s counterproductive in its current form.

• 61 Richard // Jul 29, 2010 at 9:32 pm

  @Terrence

  I do stick to the facts and avoid attacking the messenger. I do reserve the right though to call people out when they do resort to attacks.

• 62 rf // Jul 30, 2010 at 7:31 am

  I did read Agustin’s email a little too fast and kinda missed what it was saying.

  But I still think Gregor Robertson has a Gavin Newsom political career history in his desk(kinda like the guy who ran the “McDowell’s” restaurant in the movie Coming to America.).

  The question then is, which political aide/reporter/operative is Gregor going to have a sordid affair with?

• 63 Agustin // Jul 30, 2010 at 9:56 am

  spartikus: Thanks for mentioning that.

  rf: Thanks for re-reading my post.

• 64 Westender1 // Jul 30, 2010 at 12:34 pm

  The ad in yesterday’s Westender paper that requests input on the bike lane options indicates that Hornby is the selected route. Not sure there’s much left for “input.” Somewhat similar to the construction starting on Dunsmuir prior to Council voting on the project…it would seem the designs have been finalized already at 12th and Cambie.

• 65 Bill McCreery // Jul 30, 2010 at 1:49 pm

  @ Westend. Agreed. As I’ve said above, that is my info also. The detailed design is done.

  One wonders how Umberto’s customers are going to get dropped off & how the valet service is going to work.

  I’m sure there is a way to accomplish bike traffic downtown but, this is not it.

  If they’re spending $25M to do this, has anyone though about how much it’s going to cost to deal with the screwup things that don’t work, lawsuits, etc.?

  Is the proposed design available to be seen anywhere?

• 66 Tessa // Jul 30, 2010 at 2:52 pm

  @McCreery: This particular lane does not cost $25 million, but much, much less. That’s the number for the city as a whole, if I remember correctly. Just wanted to clarify that point – no worries.

  @Terrence: Did you read my post? You said you don’t believe the numbers because you walk and drive across the bridge and you don’t see that many cyclists. I pointed out that even if you assume bicyclists only bike during the daylight hours, there’s only 2.2 cyclists coming on the bridge every minute each direction, and so of course you wouldn’t see many. And yet you can’t offer any other evidence or any link or anything else to back up your post other than saying it doesn’t look that busy to you.

  That is a flawed way of gathering information about a subject. Extremely flawed. If you have better methods of statistics gathering, why don’t you share them with us? Why don’t you share it with the city? Why are you just commenting on a blog and insulting other commentors then?

  Why don’t you share with us your grand plan for how to move people through the region as Agustin requested? Why don’t you provide some actual backing to your ideas rather than just claiming something is obviously true and anyone else who believes or finds otherwise is completely delusional?

  @rf please, I was trying to pretend the movie Coming to America never existed and doing a pretty good job of it until you wrote that comment. Sooooo cheesy

• 67 IanS // Jul 30, 2010 at 3:05 pm

  I’d be curious to see the design too, though I doubt the City will release it until after finishing the consultation process.

  Even though it will no doubt cause a good deal of harm (as discussed above), I still think Hornby was the least damaging of the options under consideration, particularly if the lane is on the east side.

• 68 Richard // Jul 30, 2010 at 3:21 pm

  @Bill McCreery
  I suspect the bike lane might be on the west side of Hornby. That makes it easier for cyclist to get from the Burrard Bridge to Hornby and it would not conflict with Umberto’s

  Anyway, there are separated bike lanes in cities all over the world on streets with restaurants and other businesses. If they can make it work there, surely the people of Vancouver are resourceful enough to make them work here. After all, we just pulled off the biggest event in Vancouver’s history without any major problems.

  Surely we can make a separated bike lane work on Hornby if we put our creativity to finding solutions instead of inventing excuses why it won’t work.

• 69 Richard // Jul 30, 2010 at 3:24 pm

  Or we could become Toronto.

  http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/841929–hume-cycling-in-toronto-is-a-joke?bn=1

• 70 IanS // Jul 30, 2010 at 3:50 pm

  @Richard,

  The difficulty with the west side is that it will not only block access to more businesses (I think), but it will make it very difficult to access the West End coming over the Burrard Street bridge. Turning left off Burrard Street is a challenge at the best of times and not allowed for much of the day. With the right turn on Hornby already prohibited because of the bike lane, I think it would make the West End very difficult to access.

  The east side would block fewer businesses, I think, and still allow for left turns off Hornby heading into the West End. Drivers wanting to go east could either turn right off Burrard or head east on Pacific.

• 71 mezzanine // Jul 30, 2010 at 4:06 pm

  @ Richard,

  Great post, germaine to the debate here in vancouver. A choice quote for those who can’t get to the link:

  “As civic expenses go, bike lanes rank among the cheapest but would provide the biggest bang for the buck. Compared to Montreal and New York, let alone cities in Holland and Sweden, Toronto has fallen well behind.

  If our fear of bikes is any indication, Toronto has become a city terrified of change. Certainly our leaders are; politicians and bureaucrats treat two-wheelers as if they represented a threat to peace, order and good government. According to them, bikes — and pedestrians — are always in the way; they slow traffic, create congestion, make drivers nervous, and take up space in roads meant for cars.”

• 72 Terrence // Jul 30, 2010 at 5:47 pm

  thanks for the laughs, Richard – you gave me a real belly laugh when I read your twaddle at / Jul 29, 2010 at 9:32 pm

  Tessa on Jul 30, 2010 at 2:52 pm – can you actually read, do you bother to read what I said? You clearly did not understand it. But, then you have real difficulty dealing with people who do not parrot your twaddle.

• 73 Dave 2 // Jul 31, 2010 at 12:25 am

  Joe Just Joe // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:34 am

  Why do people keep spelling it Clarke, it’s Clark no e on the end.

  Here here Joe, and if I see The Sun or Province refer to “Smythe” Street again I swear I’ll lose it

• 74 Richard // Jul 31, 2010 at 9:30 am

  @Terrence
  Thanks. Always glad to spread some cheer. Your one man campaign to keep the word twaddle alive is most admirable.

• 75 Bill McCreery // Jul 31, 2010 at 1:00 pm

  @ Tessa.
  I was referring to the entire undertaking @ that point. sorry for not being clearer.

• 76 Bill McCreery // Jul 31, 2010 at 1:03 pm

  I have just been advised that the setting out work on the Hornby lane on the east side of the street is starting this weekend. Engineering staff are working overtime on a holiday weekend @ double time to do this.

  I’m going to personally review the situation to confirm this.

  If so, SO MUCH FOR THE CONSULTATION ending in September.

• 77 Terrance // Jul 31, 2010 at 10:26 pm

  I have to apologize to the site. I’ve been on a multi-day bender and I’m sorry that I equated my own misguided opinions with hard data. From now on I won’t mix meth and the keyboard. My sincere apologies again.

• 78 Bobbie // Aug 2, 2010 at 4:48 pm

  I can sense a lot of fear in here.
  Car drivers afraid of change, afraid of looking down the road to see what’s coming.
  All through the ’80s and ’90s they were told that only welfare losers rode bicycles and that if they put themselves into massive debt by purchasing a car, they would be ahead of the game.
  Car drivers are the King of the Road, or so they were told.
  But no matter how much they paid for their car, no matter the total cost of gas, parking , insurance, maintenance and so on, they just weren’t getting ahead. Even when the average car driver screams and rants that their gas taxes entitle them to sole usage of the road it drives them further around the bend when they’re reminded of all of the costs of motoring that they always seem to want to externalize.

  Nope, like it or not, the day of the subsidized automobile are quickly drawing to an end. Sure, the automobile lobbyists aren’t going to go down without a good scream and a fight. And yes, it may get a little nasty out there on the public roads as cagers vent their disillusionment of not attaining the “American Dream(tm)”. But as India and especially China thirst for the same limited resources that North American car drivers thirst for, we are going to have to make a decision.
  Do we start embracing a more sensible affair with the private automobile, or do we aim for the status quo and doom ourselves to war after war after war when we start fighting for limited resources.

  George Carlin said ” The thing about the American Dream is you have to be asleep to believe it”

• 79 Michael // Aug 5, 2010 at 12:11 pm

  Terrence’s comment about how few cyclists he sees on the Burrard Bridge lanes reminds me of our friend who, having driven across the bridge, angrily complained about seeing only 10 riders on the new separated lane shortly after it opened. I waited a few weeks until she’d cooled down, then noted that it took her about one minute to cross the bridge, which meant that 10 riders a minute equals 600 an hour, just in one direction. She looked surprised, then agreed.

  I prefer to believe the city’s counts, which are done by electronic meters. Some others commenting here, when the facts don’t square with their casual observations and their beliefs, seem to prefer a conspiracy.

• 80 Bill Smolick // Aug 6, 2010 at 7:54 am

  Oh GMGW, my old friend where have you been? A nation turns its lonely eyes to you…

  > Even now drivers who are too timid to perform the Indy-style standing
  > start now necessary to get onto the Burrard bridge southbound from Pacific
  > use the Hornby/Granville bridge route as an alternate

  The “Indy-style standing start” you describe was a problem before the bike lane was installed. I’ve never been fond of that double merge onto that particular bridge.

• 81 Bill McCreery // Aug 6, 2010 at 7:46 pm

  Apparently my ‘setting out’ prediction last weekend didn’t happen but perhaps some was lost in translation. I understand there were City survey crews on Hornby last week. What were they doing? In fact, what is the City doing with this whole process? All we know is they’re having a public info session next Wednesday & the public consultation process is 6 weeks [+/-15 Sep].

  That 6 weeks, by the way, is just another insult to Vancouver voters. 6 weeks is a joke. It is not long enough to allow individual, businesses & condos consisting of 100s of owners & renters to assess & come to reasonable conclusions much less for those various interest groups to develop any sense of their shared conclusions. It seems obvious that is precisely the intent. So, we’re just going thru the motions, ONCE AGAIN.

  As well, even before we are allowed to comment on whether the already decided Hornby route is going to bankrupt my business or reduce my condo value shouldn’t we be allowed to discuss alternative routes? WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT? Why isn’t Granville Street on the table? Why isn’t Granville Bridge rather than Burrard, given all the problems, on the table?

  Message to Vision:: If you’re going to do something, do it right.

• 82 Bill Lee // Aug 10, 2010 at 10:28 am

  ” At the start of the 20th century, weekly bicycling columns in Seattle newspapers reported that ten thousand cyclists, in a city of 80,000, crowded Seattle paths and roadways. So next time you’re out on your bike avoiding texting motorists, be grateful that car traffic is all you have to worry about.”

  The tale of Seattle and bicycles – a love story
  http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/archives/217460.asp

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