The Twittersphere already bubbling with ideas for what to do with our “iconic” bathtub building at one of the city’s key intersections, which started life as Eaton’s, continued for a while as eaton’s, became Sears and will now be ???
Sears store at Robson and Granville to close: Your ideas for this key urban space here
March 2nd, 2012 · 106 Comments
Categories: Uncategorized
106 responses so far ↓
1 Michael McCarthy // Mar 2, 2012 at 9:06 am
It’s the perfect spot for the VAG. Prague did a conversion of a similar large space – Trade Fair Palace – Museum of Modern and Contemporary Art
(Veletržní palác – Muzeum moderního a současného umění) – and it is stunning.
http://www.ngprague.cz/en/5/sekce/veletrzni-palace/
2 Agustin // Mar 2, 2012 at 9:09 am
Frank’s Foosball and Pinball Emporium!
World’s first multi-storey Rollerama (with sweet ramps around the outside so you can skate from the top all the way to the bottom without stopping)
Fill it with water and make it a real bathtub
Happy Friday
3 AW // Mar 2, 2012 at 9:10 am
Knock it down. With the amount of office space being built in the next couple years it probably doesn’t make too much sense right now, but I’d love to see the eyesore go. Perhaps lease the space to Nordstroms in the interm?
4 Silly Season // Mar 2, 2012 at 9:17 am
Pleeeeeeeeezzzzz!
Can I pushing the button to send off the wrecking ball?!
5 Roger Kemble // Mar 2, 2012 at 9:45 am
Yes, please the wrecker’s ball.
I remember César Pelli’s, the arrogant bastard, comment to us on the AIBC’s UD committee before it went ahead . . .
“ . . . retail continuity is not appropriate on Granville!”
I fear the worst though for now our resident experts are ovulating over the BIG TWIST.
We are ever vulnerable to the clichés in BC and if ever there was a world cliché it is now the twisted tower . . . and believe me aluminum cladding will be just as much glaring as our now dying cliché the gray, glass towers . . .
6 Jo // Mar 2, 2012 at 9:52 am
Give half of it to Apple with very reasonable tax / lease terms so they fix the visual atrocity with one of their stunning premier stores. The other half of the building will climb in value and the landlord can make the lease money back.
7 tf // Mar 2, 2012 at 10:11 am
Perfect – so much space – modern facility – new Vancouver Art Gallery!
8 Mira // Mar 2, 2012 at 10:27 am
Maybe commenter at #1 has got the best idea. However, I still don’t understand why the VAG wants to move as it doesn’t make good use of their present space anyway, why need more? Instead of wrecking it, I guess it can be retrofitted somehow. And rented out to some pawnbroker later on, some video games producer, or other sort of useless entertainment, in the Green Jobs category. We have to recycle the building… aren’t we the greenest pile of all?
9 Bill Lee // Mar 2, 2012 at 10:43 am
…”started life as eaton’s” Before Chez Eaton (no apostrophe, it was the Lyric Cinema and the old (2nd) Hotel Vancouver, beloved by returning troops and family in 1945-46. (See also ex-Bus Yard at 41st and Oak, much coveted by M. Geller, and an army barracks for some years)
Are people forgetting the TD (Tower of Darkness) on the same block?
Of course if Nordstrom doesn’t take over the bit-too-small ex-library site, they might get a good rate for the Ex-Eaton building. However would Holt-Renfrew have a say as they are similar in aiming at the carriage trade from Point Grey and the North Shore?
Someone will think that this is an opportunity with our Myopic Party council to get in a new tower with lower retail and take advantage of the height allowance to breach the ScotiaBank (Ex-Birks/Strand Cinema) tower next door.
As far as the VAG goes, let it go. The 4th rate collection will not be shown. They rely far too much on travelling shows set up by someone else, and the economics means that they can’t even pay people to go in the doors.
Leave it as a evening party hall for Howe Street business receptions and Kerrisdale wedding receptions as it is now.
And drop the subsidies as they haven’t let the regular people in free in return for subsidies.
Perhaps make it a regional gallery and spread the largesse to SAG, BAG, Presentation etc.
10 sv // Mar 2, 2012 at 10:52 am
I’d imagine the mall owners have their eyes on a large retail tenant. After all didn’t they approach Sears about buying the lease back?
11 Joe Just Joe // Mar 2, 2012 at 10:54 am
People would be naive to think that Chadillac Fairview doesn’t already have a plan in place. For the amount paid the VAG is not it. Expect to see the plans very soon. It will be a major improvement over status quo.
Downtown is going to be a little different without a dept store for the middle class though. There seems to be a market for a Target-like entry.
12 Karoly Negyesi // Mar 2, 2012 at 10:54 am
A resounding yes to a public square in place of this “pretty” building.
In reality, we will get another highrise alas.
13 ThinkOutsideABox // Mar 2, 2012 at 10:56 am
If anyone wants to see what was the before and after at that site:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/entheos_fog/6665574649/
The green conservationalist culturist in me says turn it into an arts and culture center, along the lines of what others above are suggesting. House the Art Gallery but also a much more all encompassing arts center: film, music, stage, performing in addition to visual.
Sort of how Toronto was wanting to preserve the Canada Malting Silos and turn it into a music center.
The other side of me says knock it the f– down. And I have to agree with Roger about twisty buildings and people here being susceptible (perhaps gullible?) to clichés.
Look up the Absolute Towers in Mississauga. A suburb of Toronto has already been there and done that – Vancouver would just be a follower, as it was with the Pacific Centre underground mall.
14 rf // Mar 2, 2012 at 10:57 am
Low Income Housing for recovering drug addicts!
15 Erin Green // Mar 2, 2012 at 11:13 am
I just need to also say:
What an amazing opportunity for the VAG!!
This would be absolutely perfect in so many ways.
If the building is repurposed for anything, I just hope they re-establish ground floor street level shopping. I hate that its just an empty block. (to me, since I never go to sears)
VAG has no money, or limited money. Also, it’s in the center of the city – a place already established as a meeting place for activism and cultural events.
16 Kirk // Mar 2, 2012 at 11:18 am
Well, if pot gets legalized, it’d make a great place for the City to help ease the tax burden…. Or, how about Walmart Fight, Round 2? TGIF!
17 brilliant // Mar 2, 2012 at 12:02 pm
@Bill Lee 8-The current building would be perfect for Mayor and Vision council. They don’t need windows as they only see their own views anyway.
18 RudyR // Mar 2, 2012 at 12:23 pm
Looking at what was there before makes the “urinal” look not so bad!
The Vancouver Museum occupies the old Court House; Bing Thom’s symphony hall under a revitalized public square to the north, and the Art Gallery in a re-imagined, street-friendly Sears building.
19 gmgw // Mar 2, 2012 at 12:31 pm
@Bill Lee #8:
I fondly remember the magnificent old Lyric Theatre, which in an earlier incarnation was the Vancouver Opera House, whose boards were trod by many great theatrical, musical, and vaudeville performers of the early twentieth century, from Rachmaninoff to the (pre-movie) Marx Brothers. It was every bit as garand as the Orpheum and its destruction for the Pacific Center development was a cultural crime of the first order, right up there with the demolition of the Birks Building.
Let me add my voice to those saying “tear it down”. At the very least it shoud be stripped down to the I-beams and something of an entirely different appearance and purpose constructed in its place, preferably desinged by a “name” architect (Gehry? Meier?).
My own preference would be a large center devoted to the visual and performing arts, rather like a smaller Lincoln Center– several small theaters devoted to music, dance and theatrical performance, author’s readings, residencies and presentations by well-known visual and performing artists, touring art displays such as the VAG has become dependent upon (which would free up more room in its present building for the permanent collection, perhaps a new home for my beloved Pacific Cinematheque, which is looking for a larger facility; the possibilites are limited only by the imagination.
Lunchtime populist programmming in the various spaces, in the spirit of the old Arts Club and VAG midday events, would be hugely popular with the downtown crowd. We have enough bloody office space. It’s long past time the arts were given a prominent and high-profile place in the dead center of the city. All that’s needed is the will– and the vision (no pun intended).
gmgw
20 Silly Season // Mar 2, 2012 at 12:44 pm
@Brillaint #15. Zing!
I like the range of suggestions. Almost snything would be better than what is there now. But a Target, Joe? The whole building?
Say it ain’t so! Such a primo space. Would be another opportunity lost to REALLY move Granville off it’s club strip rep.
Some kind of mixed use…
21 MB // Mar 2, 2012 at 12:58 pm
If the building is to become public space, then the public has to take the first step and buy it.
After that, the sky’s the limit as to repurposing it.
Thanks to Think and Bill L. and gmgw for illustrating what we lost on that site generations ago when heritage was a dirty word.
22 Derp // Mar 2, 2012 at 1:12 pm
“preferably desinged by a “name” architect (Gehry? Meier?)”
ANYBODY BUT GEHRY
23 Gregor // Mar 2, 2012 at 1:17 pm
No brainer….social housing, mental health facility, safe injection site, drug recovery centre….
24 Joe Just Joe // Mar 2, 2012 at 1:38 pm
Not suggesting the site will be a Target, in fact sign’s point that it will be reworked with a tower or two and the podium chopped down significately, Nordstroms seems to be the leading candiate for new anchor.
I was suggesting though that with Sears departure that there is an opening for a lower end dept store in the core to serve the residents. Somethings along the lines of a Target.
25 Tiktaalik // Mar 2, 2012 at 1:49 pm
I think the Vancouver Art Gallery would be better served by entirely moving to the Vancouver Post Office building, which will be vacated in 2015. This will free up the current courthouse for use by the Museum of Vancouver, which really needs more space and should be downtown.
For the Sears the city should buy the land, tear it down, and finally give Vancouver the real public square that it deserves. The broken up, inaccessible Robson Square is not good enough.
26 Bill Lee // Mar 2, 2012 at 2:00 pm
@gmgw // Mar 2, 2012 at 12:31 pm
You know Monsieur GMGW, that you are setting up a new place for the Occupy Vancouver movement along with your “little theatres” plan.
We can’t have those kind of people downtown!!
(though we did permit them to camp at Victory Square in the 1970s, (Ex-Courthouse, knocked down in the 1913 for the Rattenbury Courthouse, Now VAG.))
[ "The maple trees on the Pender Street side of the Victory Square are the oldest street trees in the city, planted in 1897" ]
We have to remember that most theatres were not single purpose buildings here in the outback/bush/hinterlands, but Opera House didn’t mean a single purpose for just opera but a concert hall that could show movies and so on.
Of course in 1891 when the Opera House(1891)/Orpheum (1913)/Lyric(1936) opened there were ain’t no movies. only Vaudeville and musical acts. Now you know what Mark Twain and Rudyard Kipling saw when they came through town (by rail and ship) . The Lyric started showing films in the sound era, July 1935.
The Lyric was the old Orpheum, at 761 Granville Street, renamed the Vancouver Theatre (later the Lyric, then the International Cinema, then the Lyric once more before it closed for demolition in 1969 to make way for the first phase of the Pacific Centre project)
Thanks to @ThinkOutsideBox // Mar 2, 2012 at 10:56 am
for the Flikr stream link. From the save Then and Now series.
See http://www.flickr.com/photos/entheos_fog/6794217453/in/set-72157594314946340/
for the old Colonial Theatre on Granville at Dunsmuir down the street from the lyric.
Look up Hotel_Vancouver_(1916) in Wiki for some of the story of the old (2nd) Hotel Vancouver where the Tower of Darkness and Sears is now. It was on the Georgia Street side at corner of Howe Street. The (Old) Orpheum (Lyric) was on Granville Street facing the Vancouver Block.
27 Bill Lee // Mar 2, 2012 at 2:06 pm
Found the Lyric comparison
http://www.flickr.com/photos/entheos_fog/4419456777/
and
/4420222558/
See the Italianate (Tuscan) Hotel Vancouver looming above the old theatre in the first set.
28 F.H.Leghorn // Mar 2, 2012 at 2:36 pm
“…a large center devoted to the visual and performing arts…”. Aren’t you people paying attention? The CBC is taking a $100 Million hit in the upcoming budget with comparable cuts to arts funding. Without hefty taxpayer subsidies arts organizations and artists in general are chronic money-losers.
Remember, we need to spend those scarce tax dollars on important things like stealth fighters and warships, not leisure activities for a tiny minority of snobs. Want entertainment? Turn on the TV or check out Youtube (60 hours of video uploaded every minute of every day). And it’s free.
29 MB // Mar 2, 2012 at 2:39 pm
@ Tiktaalik #24: “For the Sears the city should buy the land, tear it down, and finally give Vancouver the real public square that it deserves. The broken up, inaccessible Robson Square is not good enough.”
That would be the most courageous step. Presumably taking the Black Tower with it to free up the entire block for Vancouver’s first decent town square, large enough for an amphitheatre and regular outdoor concerts, protest, towering shade trees without underground parking and malls below to hinder their growth, and an exceptionally good design using quality materials.
Of course this means placing more value on the the urban public realm at street level, which has suffered greatly since vanciouver’s birth from continuous neglect while fawning to the edifices of private corporate wealth, sports and cars takes precedence.
Step Two would be the promotion of adaptive reuse of the building. Each floor covers a little more than a half block. The interior programming and layout and the exterior facades can all be radically altered and make up for turning their backs on the city. VAG would fit, and they might save millions with repurposing this building rather than moving to Larwill Park. The savings can be placed into expandnig anf improving the VAG collections as a cultural preservation and enhancement policy.
Step Three is the easiest: Stay away from any vision that requires the elevation of public outdoor or indoor space above the purely utilitarian. Let business-as-usual continue.
30 J // Mar 2, 2012 at 3:22 pm
Its going to be Nordstrom….Already decided.
31 Jak King // Mar 2, 2012 at 3:24 pm
My first preference would see the VAG go into the space. If that’s not to be, then we (the City) should buy the land and create a major public square.
32 KY // Mar 2, 2012 at 3:32 pm
@24
Can’t see the benefit. What would a Target do to the Bay? Nothing good. There is a Costco not too far away for those local residents wanting to save a bit on large volume staples, and an Urban Fair for groceries.
I wonder if a Woodwards style retrofit is in the works, with a covered shetered courtyard and some ground floor retail. The one thing I would like is to get rid of the horrible facade — the original black monolith was daunting and scary but at least it wasn’t a giant urinal.
33 Bill Lee // Mar 2, 2012 at 3:49 pm
Jeff (Civic not Olympic) Lee, a sometimes blogger with the Sun, notes that the Parking lot is owned by the City through the DPCorp.
And a short note about the history of the term “white urinal”
http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/03/02/the-great-white-urinal-will-soon-be-vacant-again-with-sears-departure/
34 Paul T. // Mar 2, 2012 at 3:57 pm
32 comments and not one person has mentioned the best idea for the Great White Urinal? Can anyone say, world’s biggest bike emporium?!?
It’ll be glorious! 6 floors of everything bike. Gregor’s picture on every wall. And electric car charging stations at every stall in the underground parking lot. Of course it will be taxpayer subsidized, but that will only be a few billion dollars.
35 Silly Season // Mar 2, 2012 at 4:42 pm
Thanks for the clarification #24 @JJJ.
I don’t disagree with another retail player, and especially one as popular as Target, who would undoubtably be a big draw as anchor tenant, helping draw out more people to the Pac cand Van Centre mall shops .
Hope to hear soon of other plans that open up the possibililities for the site.
36 Silly Season // Mar 2, 2012 at 4:49 pm
@KY #31
The Bay is concentrating on better fashion and make-up, and is pricing for the middle-high middle in that sector, I believe. They want to steal some of Holt’s action. One visit to the 6th floor will show you that appliances and furniture is not a business they are investing in.
Target is more home and home accessories. It does carry clothing but prices at the lower end. Have been in some in California. It’s where i go for sports socks, working t-shirts and spatulas. More like Zellers, but better inventory.
Completely different target markets. You’ll forgive the pun.
37 Higgins // Mar 2, 2012 at 5:06 pm
I didn’t like a single thing I read in here. Not a single usable idea. great plans but where’s money going to come from? we’ll be damned if we get rid of the Sears building we’ll be damned if we’d not.
You know what?
I’m waiting for Glissy! What would Glissando say?
Or at least, someone who can articulate a real solution on how way to deal with this building.
Geoff Meggs and colleagues need not apply. We’d let the viaducts for you to concentrate on!
38 Guest // Mar 2, 2012 at 5:16 pm
I suppose the “danger” is that downtown will become an enclave for higher priced stores – which have a history of doing poorly in Vancouver – Woodwards moved upscale and died, as did Eaton’s, as well as Sears “Downtown”.
That’s the 2nd departure of Sears from downtown Vancouver – remember in the 80s when they occupied the former Eaton’s/Spencer department store at Harbour Centre (now SFU Downtown) – a destination between Woodwards and Eaton’s and the Bay.
Nordstrom is a pricey store. With Pacific Centre bookended by Holt Renfrew and Nordstrom, its middle class traffic may drop. More moderately priced stores have more customer traffic than higher end ones – compare Georgia & Granville with London Drugs now versus as Birks, Bollum’s Books or Duthie Books.
If a Target doesn’t get part of the Sears space, maybe it will find a home in the podium of the Telus Garden condo tower (halfway between Winners & Homesense)?
39 Bill Lee // Mar 2, 2012 at 6:17 pm
Looking at the Tower of Darkness with its CKNW radio studios next to Sears/Eaton
http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=67
Heights Antenna (shorter) 441 ft [ 134.4metres ]
Roof 417 ft [ 127.1 metres ]
Toronto Dominion Tower
700 West Georgia Street
Construction Dates Finished 1972
Floor Count 30
Basement Floors 2
Floor Area 43,719 m²
Elevator Count 10
Building Uses – office – communication – retail
Structural Types – highrise – sign
Architectural Style – international
So couldn’t an ugly building be built on top of the Sears/Eaton structure?
The SkyscraperPage has various views of small thumbnail sketches, (many local by “Archix”), lined up horizontally of towers, or compared to Eiffel, Pyramids etc. And a Google aerial view which shows you the ugly footprint and some long shadows (and a demonstration on the Art Gallery Lawn on the day the aerial shot was taken.)
And compare it to across the street
===========
……… ?buildingID=65
Heights Roof 452 ft [ 137.8 metres ]
Scotia Tower
650 West Georgia Street, V6B 4N7
Construction Dates Began 1974 Finished 1977
Floor Count 36
Basement Floors 1
Floor Area 43,166 m²
Elevator Count 11
Building Uses – office – communication – retail
Architectural Style – modern
Materials – glass – granite
———-
and to
……… ?buildingID=1863
Heights Roof 184 ft [ 56.8 metres ]
Vancouver Block
736 Granville Street
Construction Dates Began 1910 Finished 1912
Floor Count 16
Floor Area 8,564 m²
Building Uses – office
Structural Types – highrise – clock
Architectural Style – neo-classical
Architect: Parr and Fee
—–
And some potential building such as one block over
……… ?buildingID=90197
Telus Residential
Robson Street & Richards Street
Status: proposed
Floor Count 43
Building Uses – residential
Structural Types – highrise
Materials – glass
—–
The other way west has
……… ?buildingID=59077
Heights Roof 517 ft [ 157.6 metres ]
The Private Residences at Hotel Georgia
699 Howe Street
Construction Dates Began 2007 Finished 2011
Floor Count 48
Basement Floors 7
Building Uses – residential – hotel – office – retail
Structural Types – highrise
Architectural Style – modern
Materials – glass
=========
and then the Twist recently chattered about.
……… ?buildingID=89764
[Height, about 160 metres , comparable to Hotel Georgia Tower ]
Burrard Gateway Tower 1
[ the "Twist" but compare to 67 floor (187.8 metres) 1133 W. Georgia 'proposal' by (yawn) Arthur Erickson "It has been likened to Turning Torso in Malmö, Sweden"]
Hornby Street & Drake Street
Status: proposed
Construction Dates End 2014
Floor Count 54
Building Uses – residential
Structural Types
40 ThinkOutsideABox // Mar 2, 2012 at 7:04 pm
Higgins: great plans but where’s money going to come from?
That’s easy – build an enormous condo above to pay for it. That’s how anything’s going to have any form of space in this city anymore.
41 Paul // Mar 2, 2012 at 11:08 pm
+1 Higgins
Lots of fantasizing going on here. The money will always answer the question. Who owns that building anyway?
On the VAG:
Why we think it’s a good idea having all of the VAG in one place centralized downtown is beyond me….
Why not spread the VAG collection, activities, and events out to smaller, cheaper spaces throughout the city (and Metro for that matter)?
42 Paul // Mar 2, 2012 at 11:14 pm
Sorry. Read the Jeff Lee article and the building is indeed owned by Cadillac Fairview.
I don’t know about his suggestion of JC Penney moving in…….I mean what would the One Million Moms – Concerned Burnaby Parents Chapter have to say about that?!
43 Everyman // Mar 2, 2012 at 11:14 pm
@Paul 41
The last thing you would want is to spread the collection into little bitty sub-galleries. It needs to have critical mass as an attraction.
44 Glissando Remmy // Mar 3, 2012 at 12:24 am
Thought of The Night
“It never occurred to me, until today, when they announced the move, that the big toilet bowl downtown, was in fact… a perfect fit for… SeeArse!”
Lots of people scratching their heads, what to do, what to do, oh my, how horrible, Sears is moving out.
Well in a way it is horrible, but not for me or you, but for the hundreds of people about to loose their livelihood. We should be sorry about them! Collateral damage.
Lock, stock, and barrel… another business that closes shop under Gregor’s ‘City of Bedlam’ watch.
Just wait for it, after The Telus Gardens (that btw looks nothing like gardens) moves in, this one might get to be called The White Flusher.
Some commentators before me, have brought up good questions like “Who’s showing me da Money!?”, ’cause there is a fair question that still remains in the air “Who owns the building?”
Before selling the Brooklyn Bridge to the new immigrants, the con men always did their homework and put together a nice story.
Here is no story.
Sears will vacate the premises sometime in October of this year. If the owner of the building wants to lease the building to another anchor/ major retailer, there is nothing we (the city) can do, organize or discuss about.
Les jeux sont faits… so…
Anyhoo.
My two kopecks in a hurry:
Quick Proposal for the #Sears Building:
“Building Stays. Major Retrofit. New Skin. Bike In Theatre/ Cinema. Accessible By Ramps & Hanging Elevator Platforms. Crash Crawly for Yuppies. Complete With Retractable Roof with ‘Live-In’ Garden, Hydroponic Plants, African Bee Hives, the whole Green shebang.
VAG occupies the main floor linked subterranean with the original VAG.
We’ll worry about the money later.”
OR
Money is no object. Implode the damn thing. International competition. In the end, give it to one of our local architects, related to Vision. Podium and twisted tower and podium, what else? VAG moves next to Starbucks. Permanent collection of early Starbucks memorabilia on display. Sure hit.
Until we find out who pays the bills…
We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.
45 The Other David // Mar 3, 2012 at 12:25 am
Way too big for Target, or anything similar. The era of the department store is over.. my parents would always buy a TV or Stereo (trimmed in French Provincial wood, everything was wood. The 1971 colour TV, the 1981 replacement TV (with remote, and tuner that went all the way to Channel 36) wood.
Who now thinks “Sears”, or “The Bay” when buying a TV, or Music (do they even still sell music anymore?) or an electric razor? Best Buy, London Drugs, or slink down to Walmart and pray the lord doesn’t see us stop in the tavern halfway home.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl75Ou3hNTY
46 The Other David // Mar 3, 2012 at 12:32 am
I’d tear down the urinal, and build an Italian Renaissance Hotel and Rococo movie theatre, one screen, but seats thousands. (Thanks Bill and gmgw….the Lyric was before my time (early memory, underground mall that ended at Georgia St… with a model of what would open later in 197?)
Hotel Van #2
http://www.mclawlor.ca/CPR80Slides/pages/67%202nd%20Hotel%20Vancouver%2C%20BC.html
Parking lot, 50s 60s, rear of International Cinema/Lyric http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5289/5249332531_d61da28013_z.jpg
The 50s were in colour as well, thanks to Fred Herzog (note large two story sign) http://designkultur.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/herzog59whitelunch.jpg
47 gmgw // Mar 3, 2012 at 12:51 am
I just love reading all these comments from folks excited about the prospect of a downtown Target store. Back when I used to spend a lot of time in Southern California (1980s), Target was known as the go-to chain for folks who couldn’t afford to shop at Wal-Mart; the epitome of low-end suburban mall culture. I gather they’ve gone a little more upscale since then, but they’d still be the first place I’d go if I was in need of a carton of plastic forks and a package of ten or twelve pairs of really, really cheap socks.
Whatever. If the best idea people can come up with (in this forum or any other) for the most prominent location on the busiest intersection in downtown Vancouver is a big-box white-trash department store, maybe we ought to just give up, burn down the whole damn town and all move to Pincher Creek, where redneckism is still felt to be the highest state of being that humans can aspire to. God albloodymighty… Can we maybe stretch our tiny minds past their all-too-evident tight restrictions, please?
gmgw
48 Lewis N. Villegas // Mar 3, 2012 at 1:04 am
Strip the cladding and make it condos.
49 Xavier // Mar 3, 2012 at 3:35 am
cadillac fairview is satan’s tool – downfall of Canadian retailers – US invasion is coming! Wake up Canada!!!!!
50 David // Mar 3, 2012 at 5:32 am
Art Gallery
51 Hazu Chan // Mar 3, 2012 at 8:11 am
I personally would love to see a Japanese department store like the really nice upscale ones in Tokyo with their fabulously wonderful food retail areas in the basement (aka “depachika”). They are a visual feast and the service levels are beyond compare. Perfect for a pacific gateway city no?
52 Michael Geller // Mar 3, 2012 at 9:17 am
The building is not going to be knocked down to create a public space! Don’t be so silly.
But here’s the background to the notion…and it is just that…a notion, on why it might be considered as expansion space for the VAG. http://www.gellersworldtravel.blogspot.com
53 Richard // Mar 3, 2012 at 10:58 am
@Glissy
Bike in Theatre, great idea. I hadn’t thought of that.
Seriously, it would be great to hook the Canada Line station underground to Robson Square, which was designed to be a transit station.
Also, stores and safes along Robson and Granville would be great. And RAIN PROTECTION along the streets as well.
54 Mira // Mar 3, 2012 at 11:05 am
Japanese store would be interesting according to Hazu Chan.
I also liked the funny but always insightful take, from the world of Glisssando…
Also very good suggestions from Bill Le, Roger Kemble, gmgw, Silly season, FGL…
And then Michael Geller closes the lid to all the fun with this:
“The building is not going to be knocked down to create a public space! Don’t be so silly.”
Quite agree.
55 Tiktaalik // Mar 3, 2012 at 11:20 am
@Michael Geller 50:
If you consider the idea of a public square on the Sears site to be silly I’m curious about your position on Vancouver’s public square problem in general.
Vancouver doesn’t have the capacity to host public events. In many cases, from planned like the Junos or quickly organized, like the playoffs, streets have to be closed off. Is this an issue that needs to be solved or is the status quo acceptable?
If a public square is needed, but this site isn’t the right place, then where should it go and why?
From my experience seeing Federation Square in Melbourne (that city that stole our best city crown) I can see the benefits that a public square can bring. In my opinion Vancouver’s lack of public square is a glaring missing feature of our city.
56 Sean Bickerton // Mar 3, 2012 at 12:52 pm
Anything would be an improvement!
57 Silly Season // Mar 3, 2012 at 2:51 pm
@Sean Bickerton #54 true dat!
@Michael Geller. It’s a monstrosity, and i can’t run by it quickly enough. no curbside appeal, one could say. It would be a public service to start all over–unless it really is possible to retro-fit it (?).
Not necessarily for a public square—unless there’s an awesome opportunity to incorporate a plaza on the podium— but for something that might incorporate good design, multi-use, with the possibility of public space. Other than seated areas in a shopping plaza.
Glissy: Mixed use. That’s all I’ve got. A dynamic space that is utilized up to 16-18 hours a day. Not a dead zone after 6pm. That seems a waste.
58 Terry M // Mar 3, 2012 at 3:22 pm
It seems that the only one that bothered to notice was Glissando @44 . The loss of jobs is far more dramatic than that of a building. Appreciate that Glissy!
59 Michael Geller // Mar 3, 2012 at 3:41 pm
Tiktaalik…I’m not saying Vancouver doesn’t need public spaces; I’m just saying it’s ridiculous to suggest knocking down an existing, privately owned, and very valuable building, just because a tenant has moved out.
Now as for Public Spaces, we did recently create a couple next to the new Convention Centre. Now I personally am disappointed with how they turned out, but over time they will be improved. They are Vancouver’s Confederation Square.
And to those who like Silly Season hate the wall, if the Art Gallery was to move into the space, that wall would be completely reconstructed.
60 brilliant // Mar 3, 2012 at 3:55 pm
Why the hell would anyone want a publuc square there? The city already has one embarassing mud pit in front of the art gallery. Given Vision’s gutting of the Parks Board a larger space would be that much worse. And why would we want to hand over more space to the dope smokers, Critical Messers and other malcontents?
61 Michelle // Mar 3, 2012 at 4:35 pm
Michael #57
Hopefully, if the building comes down, they won’t choose you as their development consultant as we know now how you make your “height/per foot bonus”
Also I read your post on Jim Green on your blog. How insensitive of you, in the end the message I’ve got was … Jim Green good, but Michael Geller… better! Typical.
I liked Hazu Japanese idea #49 but the space is too big for selling flip flops sushi and geisha couture. Unles they transform the building into a Toyota/ Honda dealership.
I reared Glissy’s #44 (thanks Terry M#56) and you know what? He’s right. Glissando is the only one that touched on the human story behind the Sears building/ going out of the downtown business. Not that I am surprised anymore by his astute observations, but 57 out of 58 blinded by architecture… that’s a lot !
Ta da
62 gmgw // Mar 3, 2012 at 5:50 pm
A public space would be a fine idea, but in the wake of both the post-Stanley Cup whoop-up and Occupy Vancouver, I suspect that the creation of a large new public space downtown will be rather far from being a top priority of city planners for some time to come. The problem with large public spaces, from the POV of those charged with regulating/repressing the public, is that members of said pesky public will insist on using them…. as they see fit.
gmgw
63 gmgw // Mar 4, 2012 at 12:13 am
@Bill Lee, way back at #’s 26-27:
Here is a link that may interest you: http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/24967. There was apparently another Opera House or some such on Pender near Howe, and it was there that Charlie Chaplin appeared as a member of the Fred Karno vaudeville troupe, around about 1912, on the tour that brought him to North America (he wound up staying, and we know the rest).
Somewhere in the stacks of VPL Central Branch there is, or used to be, a bound, typewritten document listing all the performers who appeared at the VOH/Orpheum/Lyric venue up to about 1925. Given the massive amount of invaluable, irreplaceable print material consigned to the recyclers and/or garbage by VPL in the past couple of years in order to make more room for computer workstations (an appalling cultural scandal of which most library patrons are completely unaware, as it’s been done and continues to be done very quietly), that item may well have been trashed by now.
In its last couple of years of life I knew the Lyric as the most opulent second-run house in town; double bills were a buck and a half, and they never checked the ID of under-18s, which made it popular for geeky suburban kids like me who wanted to see “restricted” movies. I can remember seeing Antonioni’s “Blow-Up” there a couple of times. It was a huge theatre, with a small lobby but with an auditorium on a scale similar to the Orpheum, with brass-railed box seats on the sides and a vast, spectacular painted fire curtain adorning the stage which, I seem to recall, was donated to the Vancouver Museum when the place was torn down– Lord knows if it’s survived all these years, mouldering away in a warehouse somewhere. I rather doubt it.
I also remember the Colonial, which was on the southwest corner of Granville & Dunsmuir. It was, as near as I can recall, the first movie theatre in which I ever set foot, back in 1960 when my mother took me to see (God help me) a Doris Day movie. (We weren’t a movie-going family– I’ve more than made up for that in the decades since.) The Colonial, too, ended its days in a new incarnation, as (IIRC) the Colonial Magic Theatre, a concert hall which, circa 1970-71, booked touring mid-level rock acts– I can also recall seeing the semi-legendary bluesman Mississippi Fred McDowell in concert there.
There used to be a lovely image of an old postcard view of the Colonial at: http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3733; but I see it’s been replaced, idiotically, by a live link to Google Street View(?!?). However, there is some brief info on the Colonial, together with a couple of interesting viewer comments.
gmgw
64 Bill McCreery // Mar 4, 2012 at 12:53 am
@ Sean 54, that you’ll get consensus on, even here.
It would be interesting to see what the square footages are that the new Gallery needs vs. what’s available across the street. Perhaps VAG could move next door lock, stock and barrel. I visited the Portland gallery in August, and although I appreciate what they have accomplished there, the limitations of a linked facility are evident.
A creatively reclad tub is a more central location than Larwell Park. That location then frees up the Courthouse for whatever its next life might be. Then, rather than a sterile ‘cultural precinct’ we could have a string of cultured pearls along Georgia, mixed more gently with the remainder of Downtown uses and activities.
Now, all that needs to be determined is what becomes of the Post Office? It too would be a better location for the VAG + maybe the new VSO Hall and some condos on the roof to make the Feds some money. Then the City can develop Larwell as a mixed use site with a predominance towards office use so the vital office thread can be extended to the Stadium sites and maybe even some of the freed up viaduct lands.
If Vancouver is to continue to grow we need to have such a longer term vision which is just not putting more condos everywhere.
65 Roger Kemble // Mar 4, 2012 at 6:15 am
Bill Mc @ #61
“A creatively reclad tub . . . home for VAG sounds good to me: especially the location.
Tearing it down for a public space is too much of a stretch.
However, some many weeks before last November’s election I received a delightful e-mail letter from then Clr. Suzanne Anton thanquing me for supporting her proposal to re-jig Robson immediately south of VAG into a public meeting space.
I still thinq that is a magnificent idea.
What happened?
66 Michael Geller // Mar 4, 2012 at 8:18 am
Yes Glissy was right to mention the loss of jobs. But I think this is temporary. Moreover, if you’ve been out to Surrey lately, you’ll see there is a lot of new retail space being built creating many more jobs.
And if you read today’s Province, you’ll see there’s an expanded Telus Office Building and very tall condo development coming to a nearby site…which will also create new jobs.
More to the point, no matter how much I and others might want to see the VAG move into this space, resulting in a dramatic new redevelopment of the courthouse and this ugly portion of Pacific Centre, my prediction is that Nordstrom’s, or another major retailer is more likely to move into this space. I personally would consider a Nordstrom’s store a great addition to the downtown.
67 Silly Season // Mar 4, 2012 at 8:58 am
I will find out what a Sears employee from that location has to say this week. I have a fitness buddy who is (was!) a manager at that store.
I think that this was a lovely stream for a wish list, but agree with @Michael Geller that it will likely go retail. Someone’s gotta pay for the space.
68 Joe Bloe // Mar 4, 2012 at 9:15 am
My prediction:
Basement level will be an extension of Pacific Centre with a large scale entrance on Robson.
Ground floor will be broken up into several street level storefronts for shops and restaurants which will enliven the streets cape.
Second level will be one or two major retailers (Target would be great).
Third Floor and up will be a department store – probably Nordstrom based on the media coverage. Their San Francisco store follows this model being on the upper floors of a vertical mall on Market St.
Great news – sorry for the job losses though. Finally that eyesore will be renovated.
69 Everyman // Mar 4, 2012 at 9:55 am
@Michael Geller 63
Surely the current space is far too large for a Nordstroms?
Why not switch the two and have Nordstroms build on the Larwill Park site and leave Sears to the VAG? That will help make a better bridge between downtown retail and Gastown, while at the same time hopefully put paid to the foolish notion of demolishing the viaducts.
70 Michael Gordon // Mar 4, 2012 at 10:38 am
Some factual information on the site currently occupied by the Sears Department Store and the TD Office Tower:
-the site is zoned at 11 FSR the highest density permitted in the Downtown District ODP
-the site is primarily owned by Cadillac Fairview which is owned by the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund; therefore income from the site is paying for the pensions of retired teachers
-the City has an interest in the parkade under the store; the TD bank has been a longstanding partner in developments by Cadillac Fairview and may continue to have a financial involvement in the site
-the floor plate of the Sears Building is problematic for transforming the walls into shop windows and more entrances because the cores of the building are on Granville and Howe. More than 10 years ago when Sears moved into the building, staff worked with the building owner to maximize the locations where windows could replace walls…regrettably, where you see a blank wall, there is generally a part of the floor plate behind the wall that prevents it from being anything but a wall.
71 Frank Ducote // Mar 4, 2012 at 12:23 pm
Thanks, Michael @ 66. Always like to have some facts enter into a discussion. Do you know if there is any unused density left on the site?
72 Bill McCreery // Mar 4, 2012 at 12:25 pm
@ Roger 62:
“… re-jig Robson immediately south of VAG into a public meeting space.
What happened?”.
We didn’t get elected and I don’t remember if VV had said much about that matter. I agree that location as well as the entire two block Howe Street Court House wasteland really does need an injection of something to give it some vitality. That was one of the reasons I’ve favoured keeping and expanded VAG where it is.
One important unresolved problem if Robson is ‘pedestrianized’ is what do you do with the Robson Bus, which happens to be a key part of the Downtown/West end transit system? Any creative ideas?
By the way per your comment 5 about César Pelli, I was on the UDP a couple of years later, after the tub was up, and Phase 2 came to us. We made them add street windows along Granville + the canopy. We wanted them to go further, but were not successful. Interesting that the recladding for Holts, etc. is finally achieving some of what we wanted in the 1st place.
A conclusion I made at the time when Pelli and Pacific Centre, and Web Zarafa doing the Scotia Tower and being involved with the Royal Centre, was that Toronto’s TD Tower was a Mies, Vancouver got Pelli and cheap cladding, and somehow WZMH’s Vancouver buildings didn’t quite have the quality their Tronoto projects. The term “branch plant architecture” came to mind. So, I hope the high hopes of some for the latest visiting architect can be realized.
73 Michael Gordon // Mar 4, 2012 at 12:35 pm
-sorry, one correction – the site is zoned CD-1 and the permitted density is 9.47 fsr
-the permitted height, depending on the location on the site is between 300 to 450′, although at home I am unable to check how the applicable view corridors reduce the achievable height on the site
-one other interesting fact is the city once owned the entire site as the City assembled it using urban renewal funding with cost sharing from the Province and Federal governments under the urban renewal provisions of the National Housing Act
Tom Campbell was Mayor when the development of Pacific Centre broke ground and it was viewed as a way to maintain the downtown as a retail and office centre of regional significance as shopping centres developed in the suburbs
-the City then sold most of its interest in the site to a three party partnership of Eaton’s, the TD Bank and Cadillac Fairview; it retained an interest in the site through the ownership of the undergound parkade
74 Joe Just Joe // Mar 4, 2012 at 12:39 pm
CF has had plans drawn up as recently as 3yrs ago on what they’d do, art gallery and public square were not on those plans and paying $170M to break the existing leases is unlikely to place them on the list.
I believe we will see the site reworked with a new office tower added and at least one major retail tenant. We might also see the addition of a bike corral.
75 Joe Just Joe // Mar 4, 2012 at 1:34 pm
Here are a couple of quotes from a report by Bunt & Associatescommissioned for CF back in 08.
“7.3.2 Georgia Street/Granville Street Redevelopment
This is the preferred option of Cadillac Fairview as space can be dedicated appropriately as part of the future redevelopment of the Sears site. This would be the best location for the bike centre in terms of visibility and accessibility. The major concern with this option is the timing of the redevelopment of this site and the potential for lost retail revenue. The latter could be relieved through relaxation of the site density for part or all of the bike centre.”
“7.3.3 Georgia Street/Howe Street Redevelopment
This option provides a less visibile site from the street-front than the Sears site, however has the benefit of the “novelty factor” of being located on the rooftop of a building that could develop this location as a landmark for cyclists in the City.
There is also more opportunity to link associated services to the street level. Revenue loss is minimized at this location and it also provides the most expandable location.
Connectivity of this site to the downtown cycle network would need to be addressed as the fronting roads (Georgia Street and Howe Street) are not comfortable for cyclists of all levels. This could be in the form of on-street cycle
lanes or separated cycle facilities.
Other concerns with this site include:
• The link to transit, particularly for bike park-and-ride trips that will need to
park, walk across Georgia Street and then enter the Canada Line Station.
• Constructability: it has been advised by Cadillac Fairview that the new building will be constructed on existing footings and will push design strengths to their limits and in so doing, will likely not allow roof occupancy of any kind.
With the constructability issues aside, this site may be a good temporary solution prior to the redevelopment of the Sears site, depending on its timing.”
Source:
http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/civicagencies/bicycle/documents/080716.pdf
76 Joe Just Joe // Mar 4, 2012 at 1:35 pm
Ugh hate copying and pasting where we don’t have the option to edit after the fact. Frances feel free to edit the formatting of the above post to make it easier to read, if you want. Thanks.
77 Creek'er // Mar 4, 2012 at 1:55 pm
Funny to read all the comments about turning it over to the VAG.
One problem: the owner. They are a business. They aim to make money. They cannot do so if they give buildings away for free.
Ugliest building in Vancouver (the world?). Please Nordie’s, spend some dough fixing that eyesore.
Cover it in ivy? Or tear the entire facade off and start over. Hideous!
78 Creek'er // Mar 4, 2012 at 2:24 pm
And the winner is Sean Bickerton #54:
“Anything would be an improvement!”
79 ThinkOutsideABox // Mar 4, 2012 at 3:12 pm
Hi M. Gordon,
Actually Vision Vancouver’s Views/Higher Buildings policy that passed last term allows for 700′ discretionary height at the site – thus taking care of Canadian teachers’ pensions long past when the current crop make their final rest at the eco-friendly sustainable crematory.
See here on page 20: vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20110120/documents/penv5.pdf
No doubt there’s a developer hoping a building is proposed that will pay a bonus per floor at this site!
80 ThinkOutsideABox // Mar 4, 2012 at 3:20 pm
….heyyyy!…. I just had a Gilligan moment for renewable energy.
Build a neighbourhood energy utility, like the Olympic Village one at the foot of Cambie, fueled by the cremation of dead bodies!
How do I get in touch with Joel Solomon about this winner?!
81 Michael Gordon // Mar 4, 2012 at 4:01 pm
-interesting point ‘think outside the box’ about Council’s higher building policy
-however, have a look at the maps on page 6 of the report which identify the likely locations for the highest buildings when view corridors are factored in, and the map does not include this site; it does show that there are view corridors over the site
82 ThinkOutsideABox // Mar 4, 2012 at 4:36 pm
Indeed M. Gordon.
Nonetheless, assuming an approved rezoning, I don’t see anything in the document that prohibits a building going to 700′ in the CBD, with an incursion into other view corridors besides Q.E. Park’s, except that it “must establish a significant and recognizable new benchmark for
architectural creativity and excellence, while making a significant contribution to the beauty and
visual power of the city’s skyline;”
Please correct me if I’m not reading this properly, or if Brent’s reading, maybe he too can chime in on this “have your cake and eat it too” policy. Otherwise, why is the whole area demarcated to have gone from 600′ to 700′?
83 Michael Geller // Mar 4, 2012 at 7:21 pm
Michael Gordon et al. When I see the FSR granted to the Telus Garden development, and other new developments around the city, I would like to think that if it could be demonstrated that there was significant public benefit in adding one or two towers to this site in return for accommodating the VAG or significant improvements to the look of the building, some accommodations could be made!
84 Glissando Remmy // Mar 4, 2012 at 11:34 pm
Thought of The Night
” Skateboarding with Michael Gordon…
”
MG #66 says:
“the site is primarily owned by Cadillac Fairview which is owned by the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund; therefore income from the site is paying for the pensions of retired teachers”
How ironic.
To have this news of a Major employer (Sears), laying off hundreds of employees (no union brouhaha there), during a local BCTF labor dispute… an employer who’s earnings were essentially paying the pensions of Ontario Teachers… go figure.
I wonder how many of these Sears pickle eating employees, will have to take time off, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday to accommodate the tantrum thrown by the chocolate cake eaters.
Eh!?
We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.
85 ThinkOutsideABox // Mar 5, 2012 at 12:20 am
Skateboarding with Michael Gordon…
Okay Glissy, that was the giveaway to me that you may be more than just any old Joe Public observer of the goings on in this city and and have a connection that puts you in the know.
Let’s make a community amenity contribution deal: you spill the beans on your identity, and in exchange, no one here promises not to tell anyone else.
86 rf // Mar 5, 2012 at 7:02 am
Maybe all of the resident unionistas on this site should start a petition and send it to the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan asking them to donate it for public space!
87 Agustin // Mar 5, 2012 at 10:27 am
@ Roger, 62:
You might be interested in part of an interview that Robertson gave Spacing Magazine recently:
http://spacingvancouver.ca/2012/02/06/complete-gregor-robertson-interview/
88 Chris Kay // Mar 5, 2012 at 11:29 am
What about a tower with a large diagonal gallery between Georgia/Granville and Robson/Howe? So many people cut through anyway.
Could be a great opportunity to unify an indoor public space with Robson Square and the “City Centre”. This would make a continuous axis of foot traffic from Robson Street to Georgia east of Granville. The existing structure really does break up a key connecting block in the downtown fabric.
89 Sean Bickerton // Mar 5, 2012 at 11:36 am
The centre of the city should have a vibrant street level mix of entertainment and retail, not more empty gaps left vacant after dark.
Given MG’s explanation of the reasons the horrific Sears building can’t be opened up to the street, there is no choice but to tear it down and replace it with a mixed-use building incorporating the mid-sized concert and recital halls this city has been waiting two decades for, along with a vibrant mix of retail and restaurants at street level.
Put whatever is necessary to pay for it all on top.
90 MB // Mar 5, 2012 at 11:42 am
@ Michael Geller #80 re: density bonuses paying for VAG space in the Sears building — now there’s an opportunity if I’ve ever heard one!
Both the VAG and city administrations may consider this seriously if they just took a look at the very significant potential savings to public financing.
This would free up VAG’s resources and they could focus more money toward new acquisitions, one of the unfair knocks some critics had against purchasing a new building on their own or with taxpayer’s help. VAG is like a cultural mirror: it is what we collectively determine it should be, and I prefer to think it deserves better digs AND a much expanded and improved collection. The arts have been undervalued for so long.
The density bonus may have to be quite generous, as VAG requires not only much more gallery floor space, but newer and larger conservator’s labs, climate controlled storage, workshops and classrooms, and a better public circulation.
Should this idea take flight, then I feel VAG needs its own identity stamped on the building to separate it from the late 20th-Century sclerotic corporate facadism that surrounds it.
I suggest a “separate” building (i.e. visually distinct from the rest of the block) using about half the existing Sears groundplane and volume , if possible, though it may still be physically joined to the rest. The city-owned parkade underlying the building could be repurposed as well into said labs and storage space.
If this idea flies, then the new VAG building architecture has to sing and resonate with the public and be recognized for its timeless quality, something that aims to become increasingly treasured over the generations. It must not look like a cram job overpowered by Darth Vader architecture.
My vote goes to a west-facing VAG overlooking Robson Square occupying (oh, that word again), the only face that is not overshadowed and affords a view. Using the west half of the volume of the Sears block would allow the building-to-open space sequence to step down from Granville Street to Robson Square (even if a couple of addional floors were added on top), therein protecting the square’s (if you can call it that) access to sunlight.
The extra density could be accommodated in a new tower along Granville Street, or allow other developers to credit CF with cash from additional density on other downtown building sites. Preferably, ownership of a new VAG building would be transferred to the city once density funds pay for its construction and land costs.
The beauty of this is that the public gets an expanded major cultural institute at very little cost to taxpayers.
91 Roger Kemble // Mar 5, 2012 at 12:39 pm
Michael G @ #67
“. . . regrettably, where you see a blank wall, there is generally a part of the floor plate behind the wall that prevents it from being anything but a wall.”
I dunno Michael, with those ground level ceiling clearances, an imaginative engineer and structural spandrels opening up those blank walls should be do-able. I’d hate to see those bath-tub blank walls continue to kill Granville and Howe into the future.
Augustin @ #84
Thanqxz for the heads-up. What with the amphi-theatre effect of VAG’s back steps this could be a great public meeting space.
Let’s hope Gregor gets onto this toot-sweet.
Bill Mc @ #69
Looks like there’s hope after all . . .
As for the Robson bus? Surely, given the Olympic downtown disruption past, that is a resolvable detail.
Thanqxz everyone.
92 Michael Geller // Mar 5, 2012 at 1:33 pm
MB, for what it’s worth, if the existing VAG was to be redeveloped, I could envision a design similar to the Bank of Canada in Ottawa, or City Square in Vancouver (12 & Cambie) where the old heritage builing(s) is encased in a new transparent glass box…Personally, I would love to see a new glass Atrium along Georgia Street, lit up at night with a variety of functions and activities.
Yes, we would lose the soapbox stairs, bark mulch and fountain, but replacements would soon be found.
This will probably not happen, of course, but it is nice to dream.
And to those who question whether a department store can become institutional space, just remember….. SFU Harbour Centre used to be Spencers’ Department Store!
93 MB // Mar 5, 2012 at 2:24 pm
@ Michael, well, I was envisioning about half of the volume of the Sears building adapted for VAG as a density benefit with Cadillac Fairview.
I would hate to see the little open space we have around Rattenbury’s court house / VAG filled in with buildings and would prefer it to be redesigned for a decent public square (e.g. stone paving with a few shade trees at the edges and tables and chairs, Reid’s Jade Canoe recommissioned for an expanded fountain, moveable outdoor galleries …).
Both the Georgia St and Robson St open spaces are vital for the ventilation of the downtown core, and I wouldn’t shed any tears if Robson was closed to all but pedestrians, and overlooked by a new VAG at Sears. The Vancouver Museum could move into the Rattenbury building.
94 Bill McCreery // Mar 5, 2012 at 3:30 pm
Let’s not go nuts and once again over bonus a site to the point that it becomes not a good neighbour. Don’t forget the City owns and wants to develop Larwell Park. The earnings from that can go to the new VAG at either PAC Centre or the Post Office.
One little short coming with not having a major retailer at PAC Centre is there’s no anchor and shopping malls need that.
95 Guest // Mar 5, 2012 at 5:43 pm
Roger Kemble @ 87
What he means is that the cores – emergency stairwells, elevator banks, etc. are along Granville and Howe. Looks for the emercgency exit doors at street level.
That said, a wholesale redevlopmet of the building could, conceivably move the cores of this steel frame building closer to the centre of the building – something not feasible with a minor cosmetic reno as Eaton’s and Sears had done.
WRT height restrictions – there’s the view cone from the crest of the Granville Bridge that affects the Granville side of the site as well as height restrictions on the Howe side facing the Robson Square complex (so as not to overshadow it).
Apparently there may be room for a tower dead centre that doesn’t offend either too much.
Don’t expect anything that would breach a view cone. The stubby bulky Telus office tower lies under a view cone and the Bay Parkade (which can directly connect to Granville Station) won’t see a Bentall size office project as its height is limited by a 300 ft view cone.
96 Frank Ducote // Mar 5, 2012 at 10:01 pm
I really love the flights of creative fancy going on for this critical property and location but, please, no residential, not here. We’re just beginning to reposition downtown as a place of work, culture, retail and entertainment. Any mix of those elements are, to me, vastly preferable to yet more condos in the core.
97 Lewis N. Villegas // Mar 5, 2012 at 10:23 pm
@ 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93 …
Heck, what is this? Another Public Hearing?
98 Bill McCreery // Mar 5, 2012 at 11:35 pm
Maybe, since we’re free associating, if Cadillac Fairview can convince itself that the VAG can function as the southern anchor for the Pacific Centre Mall, and since the City is already an equity participant, the City can take part of their return from Larwell Park and buy Sears. Then they’d own the parking and the 7 floors.
Then there is the ‘some’ additional density of 1 or 2 office towers, maybe a couple of floors of rooftop condos. Presumably as an equity partner the City would be a beneficiary of any profits generated from such (ad)ventures as well.
Somebody should do some numbers, maybe VAG only needs 5 1/2 floors, leaving 1 1/2 floors for a smaller retail anchor.
Wow, lots of interesting permutations and combinations, with some potentially positive benefits hopefully for the VAG as well as the Downtown.
It’d be interesting to hear from someone at the VAG. Would they be interested in some of the notions being considered here?
99 Bill McCreery // Mar 5, 2012 at 11:38 pm
Not a Public Hearing Lewis. You’re only allowed to speak once there.
100 RH Zhang // Mar 6, 2012 at 1:03 am
Bill,
Holt Renfrew is the anchor of Pacific Centre.
We should hire Frank Gehry to repackage Sears Building to make it VAG-worthy.
101 Lewis N. Villegas // Mar 6, 2012 at 8:26 am
You are only allowed to speak more than once, if you have something new to add to the proceedings.
Here are some of the things that I see need to be addressed around the site:
1. The TD/Eaton’s block would be treated as pedestrian precinct, opening thru-block links from Granville to the courthouse. The streets that bound the block on 3 sides (Hornby, Robson & Granville) would be treated as pedestrian priority streets (a la Water Street). Georgia would get a centre median with trees.
2. Relocate the Canada Line stations off the public areas into the building mass. Finish the underground links from the Ericson courthouse and make the station connect to Robson Street. Complete the correspondance between Expo Line and Canada Line at Granville without requiring passengers to come up to the street.
3. Wrap the ground level with street-oriented retail; provide sidewalks space for cafés. Take a tip from Miami and require silver and cotton tablecloths on the sidewalk. Plan the umbrellas and the outdoor space heaters to work together as an urban element.
4. Add very slender residential towers (this is the right place to do it). Control the shadows so that they fall within the shadow already cast by TD/Eaton’s block.
5. Do a significant amount street tree planting. The specimens that were removed from Granville Street are sorely missed.
6. Re-plan the Granville Street Bus Mall. The best way to kill your main street is to turn it into a bus mall—haven’t we learned that yet? Perhaps a free-fare zone downtown might help us trim back the suburban lines from entering downtown. Traffic planners may complain about a second or third transfer. However, trips downtown should be encouraged to arrive on rail (transfer should be from suburban lines to rail).Trips from the suburbs (including Vancouver neighbourhoods) should be encouraged to walk the last 5 minutes. The design of the downtown core should make that walk a pleasurable one.
102 MB // Mar 6, 2012 at 9:44 am
Being a Child of the Sixties I prefer free assocciation.
According to VanMap the Sears building occupies a footprint about three times the area VAG currently occupies in the Rattenbury building (approx. 7,900 m2 vs. 2,700 m2). It is also a perfect rectangle taken to the lot lines on three sides, a layout that makes gallery flex space planning a lot easier. Moreover, such a large floorplate allows for the creation of some very large galleries for large shows or supersized individual pieces.
Should the city through density bonuses acquire half of the volume of the Sears building for the VAG, then it could feasibly assume control over about 2.5 times the ground + upper floor area it currently has (15,000+ m2, assuming Sears has four above ground levels). Basement space is in addition to this total.
I would argue that the south half of the Sears building would be the best in terms of creating an ideal public space because of its direct connectivity to Granville, Robson and Howe. These three facades would be great foils to explore the relationships between inside and outside, and all the intermediary spatial permutations possible.
Bring the outside inside, and the art gallery to the sidewalk.
It is very fortunate that, should this idea be taken seriously, the Sears building is not one that is loved by the people or recognized as anything other than an unfortunate intrusion into Vancouver’s heritage.
If an architect like Richard Henriquez could be brought out of retirement, the site’s history as the former Class A heritage Second Hotel Vancouver would no doubt be factored into the new design in some way.
I agree with Lewis that if Robson Square closes to vehicular traffic, then the additional block of Robson Street between Granville and Howe should close too. At the very least the Robson sidewalks could be widened into a unique pedestrian space adjacent to a new art gallery. The streets are a very important part of any urban design consideration.
103 Westender1 // Mar 6, 2012 at 10:02 am
With regard to Public Hearings Lewis, you are now not permitted to speak more than once. City Council has recently changed the rules of procedure for Public Hearings, and only one five-minute verbal submission is permitted. If you cannot share all of your important points in five minutes, then you are permitted to submit comments in writing, as long as they do not exceed two pages, or 1500 words.
http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20120228/documents/a2-appendixA.pdf
Did you miss this item on the Council agenda? It was reviewed at Council’s new meeting time of 9:30 am last Tuesday.
104 Bill McCreery // Mar 6, 2012 at 11:59 am
@ RH Zhang 97.
Yes, it would be interesting to see a design competition, in fact, to see what the potential the naked steel frame has as a gallery/other uses/public space. The same needs to happen at the Post Office. It’s also a steel frame begging for a vital new life.
Yes, Holt is the north anchor, but not a major anchor. So, now the Bay is the only major anchor, but off to one side and mid-spine (with a little help for London Drugs). Eaton’s was the south anchor, and before Holt the north anchor was a food court if memory serves. I think the original thinking for Pac Centre was that the strength of Eaton’s and the Bay anchors with the linked underground mall in the Downtown location was enough to make this retail venture work.
Then came big boxes and the decline of the ‘department store’. This is still happening. Will the Bay be next? I’m not sure Nordstrom’s will be interested in this location, but I’d love to see some marketing analysis that I’m sure has been done. Even if they, Penny’s or Zellers might be, can they pay the rent such a location demands, and how much square footage do they need?
This discussion makes me think about shopping centre planning. The 50s/60s model had a major tenant (department store) at the end of each leg of a mall with a carefully located mix of small retailers between. The majors usually got preferential rents because they were the big draws. Recently those majors are falling away one by one, or the Bay is replaced by Zellers… I need to have a closer look at some of the newer malls like Aberdeen and Yohan in Richmond. Do they have what qualify as ‘majors’?
Speaking of big boxes, anchors and the street/pedestrian vitality of Granville Street, it’s interesting that in the Georgia/Robson east side of Granville we now have LD at the north end and Winners and Future Shop at the south. Maybe these big boxes can act as southern anchors and draw shoppers out from the underground mall onto Granville. Perhaps, instead of Nordstroms, there is one or two big boxes and the VAG with Lewis’ mid-block link to the Courthouse that will also give some retail and VAG street pedestrian frontage to offset what’s missing on Granville.
105 MB // Mar 6, 2012 at 12:59 pm
It’s interesting, Bill, to see the notion of “retail” turned on its ear purely through changes in economics over the last few decades, and to see a major public institutional anchor pop up in the rounds of ideas and an anchor.
I won’t shed any tears if the Pacific Centre subterranean warren, was deadended at Georgia Street.
I’m not sure the Post Office building would easily convert to an art museum. The building is very large, and even if VAG turned regional, I doubt it would be able to fill the cavernous volume of that building.
Larwill is different in that it presents a clean slate to the incorporation of a plaza — kind of a ‘front yard’ — into the design, whereas the Georgia Street facade of the PO would probably have to be pushed back (presuming its modernist design is on the heritage registry) to accommodate even a mid-sized plaza.
There are virtually no open space | plaza opportunities at Sears without removing buildings. But if VAG moved there, it could play with the open space of three different street frontages, and take advantage of Robson Square just across Hornby.
106 Michael Geller // Mar 8, 2012 at 9:57 pm
“If an architect like Richard Henriquez could be brought out of retirement…”
Trust me, Richard is not in retirement!
Leave a Comment