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	<title>Comments on: Surrey &#8212; Vancouver&#8217;s forgotten sister &#8212; gets a splash</title>
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	<description>Vancouver city life and politics</description>
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		<title>By: landlord</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/uncategorized/surrey-vancouvers-forgotten-sister-gets-a-splash/comment-page-1/#comment-18321</link>
		<dc:creator>landlord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@ Michael Geller : &quot;...what Vancouver is finally starting to do now that the engineers are not always in charge of street design.&quot;
On one of his first days in office as Mayor of Vancouver Mike Harcourt took a meeting with Bill Cutis, the City Engineer. Curtis pulled out a map of  the city. Harcourt pointed to sections of boulevard on 25th Avenue and on Cambie marked &quot;Reserved for future road expansion&quot; and said (in effect) &quot;WTF?&quot;. Curtis huriedly rolled up the plans and answered &quot;Sorry, wrong map&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Michael Geller : &#8220;&#8230;what Vancouver is finally starting to do now that the engineers are not always in charge of street design.&#8221;<br />
On one of his first days in office as Mayor of Vancouver Mike Harcourt took a meeting with Bill Cutis, the City Engineer. Curtis pulled out a map of  the city. Harcourt pointed to sections of boulevard on 25th Avenue and on Cambie marked &#8220;Reserved for future road expansion&#8221; and said (in effect) &#8220;WTF?&#8221;. Curtis huriedly rolled up the plans and answered &#8220;Sorry, wrong map&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Lewis N. Villegas</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/uncategorized/surrey-vancouvers-forgotten-sister-gets-a-splash/comment-page-1/#comment-18258</link>
		<dc:creator>Lewis N. Villegas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2551#comment-18258</guid>
		<description>Edward, we&#039;re all feeling up the same elephant, and we all have in our hands bits that just don&#039;t feel right. Let&#039;s put some numbers to it.

I flew over Surrey on GoogleEarth looking for something that didn&#039;t look right. I settled on a subdivision of small lots with the following characteristic:

Small homes spaced 32-feet apart on the rear side.

Shopping malls are typically 33 feet wide (store front to store front) for reasons of fire fighting equipment access. I don&#039;t know if this is at the bottom of what I am seeing, I am just reporting on a &quot;coincidence&quot; in dimension. 

So, for sakes of space, let&#039;s try to understand what this means in housing. In this case, the rear yard is 16-feet deep; then, a fence; then a yard as deep as two sheets of plywood laid end to end (16 feet long); then the next house. How to explain this? 

Imagine we have just pulled into a shopping center parking lot and stopped our car in front of another car parked in front of us. 

If, rather than sitting in a parking lot, we were sitting in one of these houses looking out over the back yard, then the situation would be as follows. The first house would have its rear wall built tight against the back our mid-size car&#039;s trunk; the fence would be erected between the front of our car and the front of the car facing us; and the rear side neighbour&#039;s back wall would be built hard against the rear bumper of the car in front of us. 

In the space of two cars parked front-to-front, this Surrey-approved subdivision parks two family homes.

I call the distance separating the windows of one home from the windows of the home opposite,  the &quot;Decency Index&quot;. 

I hold that any separation  less than 70 feet—is &quot;indecent&quot;. At separations less than that, the particulars of everyday life in my home become common knowledge in my neighbour&#039;s house hold, and vice versa. 

The City of Surrey stands as the &quot;Authority Having Jurisdiction&quot;, or the professional overseers that, in my opinion, got this basic element of human decency wrong by 220%.

Michael Geller, I think what we&#039;ve got here is a flock of developers that &quot;make wolves-in-sheep&#039;s-clothing&quot; look like damn fools. I hope that&#039;s made Urbanismo take notice.

Many crimes have been perpetrated in the name of affordable housing, and real estate profits. However, that doesn&#039;t mean we have to turn a blind eye when the &quot;second sister&quot;—are we channelling &quot;Cinderella here?—steps up to claim her due public recognition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edward, we&#8217;re all feeling up the same elephant, and we all have in our hands bits that just don&#8217;t feel right. Let&#8217;s put some numbers to it.</p>
<p>I flew over Surrey on GoogleEarth looking for something that didn&#8217;t look right. I settled on a subdivision of small lots with the following characteristic:</p>
<p>Small homes spaced 32-feet apart on the rear side.</p>
<p>Shopping malls are typically 33 feet wide (store front to store front) for reasons of fire fighting equipment access. I don&#8217;t know if this is at the bottom of what I am seeing, I am just reporting on a &#8220;coincidence&#8221; in dimension. </p>
<p>So, for sakes of space, let&#8217;s try to understand what this means in housing. In this case, the rear yard is 16-feet deep; then, a fence; then a yard as deep as two sheets of plywood laid end to end (16 feet long); then the next house. How to explain this? </p>
<p>Imagine we have just pulled into a shopping center parking lot and stopped our car in front of another car parked in front of us. </p>
<p>If, rather than sitting in a parking lot, we were sitting in one of these houses looking out over the back yard, then the situation would be as follows. The first house would have its rear wall built tight against the back our mid-size car&#8217;s trunk; the fence would be erected between the front of our car and the front of the car facing us; and the rear side neighbour&#8217;s back wall would be built hard against the rear bumper of the car in front of us. </p>
<p>In the space of two cars parked front-to-front, this Surrey-approved subdivision parks two family homes.</p>
<p>I call the distance separating the windows of one home from the windows of the home opposite,  the &#8220;Decency Index&#8221;. </p>
<p>I hold that any separation  less than 70 feet—is &#8220;indecent&#8221;. At separations less than that, the particulars of everyday life in my home become common knowledge in my neighbour&#8217;s house hold, and vice versa. </p>
<p>The City of Surrey stands as the &#8220;Authority Having Jurisdiction&#8221;, or the professional overseers that, in my opinion, got this basic element of human decency wrong by 220%.</p>
<p>Michael Geller, I think what we&#8217;ve got here is a flock of developers that &#8220;make wolves-in-sheep&#8217;s-clothing&#8221; look like damn fools. I hope that&#8217;s made Urbanismo take notice.</p>
<p>Many crimes have been perpetrated in the name of affordable housing, and real estate profits. However, that doesn&#8217;t mean we have to turn a blind eye when the &#8220;second sister&#8221;—are we channelling &#8220;Cinderella here?—steps up to claim her due public recognition.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/uncategorized/surrey-vancouvers-forgotten-sister-gets-a-splash/comment-page-1/#comment-18244</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2551#comment-18244</guid>
		<description>Mr. Geller, I appreciate your acknowledging that the dominance of the car is a problem to be overcome. 

I admit, I am not familiar with all of Surrey&#039;s major thoroughfares, but I cycled through there fairly regularly, usually experimenting with new routes, and I don&#039;t see how the &quot;scale of the roads could be further reduced with landscaped central medians&quot; can be achieved to any significant degree when there simply isn&#039;t room. Many of these thoroughfares were likely old dirt roads at one time, for which the city did not obtain rights of way for future widening, but allowed development to happen right up to the edge of the sidewalk (sidewalks that are them selves laid right against the traffic lanes). In fact, some of them are so bad that I&#039;m not sure you could lines the roads with trees without either removing a traffic lane from each side, or making the sidewalks too narrow for safe and comfortable use. 

I believe that a major, and I mean &lt;i&gt;major&lt;/i&gt;, rethinking of the transportation network in Surrey would be required to correct the flaws of the past that will prevent Surrey from becoming much more than it is now, groovy architecture notwithstanding. The likelihood of that rethinking in any meaningfully effective way seems unlikely. 

I will be very happy to be proven wrong on that, for if it can happen in suburban-sprawl, car-mad Surrey, it could happen in any other metro community. But I won&#039;t be holding my breath.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Geller, I appreciate your acknowledging that the dominance of the car is a problem to be overcome. </p>
<p>I admit, I am not familiar with all of Surrey&#8217;s major thoroughfares, but I cycled through there fairly regularly, usually experimenting with new routes, and I don&#8217;t see how the &#8220;scale of the roads could be further reduced with landscaped central medians&#8221; can be achieved to any significant degree when there simply isn&#8217;t room. Many of these thoroughfares were likely old dirt roads at one time, for which the city did not obtain rights of way for future widening, but allowed development to happen right up to the edge of the sidewalk (sidewalks that are them selves laid right against the traffic lanes). In fact, some of them are so bad that I&#8217;m not sure you could lines the roads with trees without either removing a traffic lane from each side, or making the sidewalks too narrow for safe and comfortable use. </p>
<p>I believe that a major, and I mean <i>major</i>, rethinking of the transportation network in Surrey would be required to correct the flaws of the past that will prevent Surrey from becoming much more than it is now, groovy architecture notwithstanding. The likelihood of that rethinking in any meaningfully effective way seems unlikely. </p>
<p>I will be very happy to be proven wrong on that, for if it can happen in suburban-sprawl, car-mad Surrey, it could happen in any other metro community. But I won&#8217;t be holding my breath.</p>
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		<title>By: em</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/uncategorized/surrey-vancouvers-forgotten-sister-gets-a-splash/comment-page-1/#comment-18241</link>
		<dc:creator>em</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2551#comment-18241</guid>
		<description>Get over yourselves. Take Surrey for what it is and unless you have something proactive to add to the conversation, leave the excessive color commentary out of your post. If you&#039;ve grown up somewhere in Vancouver &#039;proper&#039; your whole life, your opinion and perception of what Surrey is has lost all credibility in my mind. 

Slutty doesn&#039;t come close to describing Vancouver &#039;proper&#039;s&#039; forgotten sister... Take it easy on Surrey. Give it a chance to make something and in the meantime, stop making the smart, educated, people who live there feel badly about where they choose to live. There is nothing wrong with a young family, moving to the suburb of Surrey so that they can provide a happy, healthy life for their children that they wouldn&#039;t be able to afford in Vancouver. 

Shame on you all who thing your too good to step foot in Surrey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Get over yourselves. Take Surrey for what it is and unless you have something proactive to add to the conversation, leave the excessive color commentary out of your post. If you&#8217;ve grown up somewhere in Vancouver &#8216;proper&#8217; your whole life, your opinion and perception of what Surrey is has lost all credibility in my mind. </p>
<p>Slutty doesn&#8217;t come close to describing Vancouver &#8216;proper&#8217;s&#8217; forgotten sister&#8230; Take it easy on Surrey. Give it a chance to make something and in the meantime, stop making the smart, educated, people who live there feel badly about where they choose to live. There is nothing wrong with a young family, moving to the suburb of Surrey so that they can provide a happy, healthy life for their children that they wouldn&#8217;t be able to afford in Vancouver. </p>
<p>Shame on you all who thing your too good to step foot in Surrey.</p>
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		<title>By: Brenton</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/uncategorized/surrey-vancouvers-forgotten-sister-gets-a-splash/comment-page-1/#comment-18239</link>
		<dc:creator>Brenton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2551#comment-18239</guid>
		<description>Interesting article by Lisa Rochon, but I would prefer a more critical (and responsible) approach to journalism. A few column inches dedicated to crime and the &quot;broken windows&quot; theory, but no attempt to actually examine the issue, just a few nice quotes about dropping crime rates. And yes, Ms Rochon is an architecture journalist, but crime and crime prevention are fairly significant planning issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article by Lisa Rochon, but I would prefer a more critical (and responsible) approach to journalism. A few column inches dedicated to crime and the &#8220;broken windows&#8221; theory, but no attempt to actually examine the issue, just a few nice quotes about dropping crime rates. And yes, Ms Rochon is an architecture journalist, but crime and crime prevention are fairly significant planning issues.</p>
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		<title>By: gmgw</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/uncategorized/surrey-vancouvers-forgotten-sister-gets-a-splash/comment-page-1/#comment-18237</link>
		<dc:creator>gmgw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2551#comment-18237</guid>
		<description>Michael Geller:
&quot;...this statement is most unfair and demonstrates considerable ignorance of the recent politics in the city...&quot;
Hate to disappoint you, but as I&#039;ve said several times in these fora, I spend a day or two in Surrey at least every two weeks and sometimes more often, thanks to the fact that my elderly mother-in-law lives in Ocean Park. While there, media junkie that I am, I usually go through her recycling box and catch up with the local rags, the &quot;Surrey Now&quot; and the &quot;Peace Arch News&quot;. I look especially for news on development and planning trends, as even in the wake of Ms. Watts&#039; elevation to power, the same pave-over-the-pastures-and-let&#039;s-slap-up-another-Canadian-Tire-outlet approach to planning that has characterized Surrey since I started those regular visits more than 25 years ago is much in evidence. 

Admittedly I spend little time in North and central Surrey; they give me the horrors. Most of my time in South Surrey, where there are still large tracts of farmland and second-growth forest. This has the unfortunate effect of making the ongoing tsunami of unchecked development even more apparent; those fields and forests are shrinking almost daily as the malls and condos grow by leaps and bounds. It&#039;s still an overwhlemingly car-oriented city: more malls, more roads, more cul-de-sacs, more traffic. And autombile-driven densification is picking up the pace. Driving along 16th Avenue east of Highway 99, it seems like every second acreage you pass has either a &quot;for sale&quot; or development permit sign on it.  

I know that Watts talks a good line about managed growth, Michael; for a year or so after she was elected, the Now and the News hung on her every word, and her golden mug was on their front pages in four-part colour every week. So I have a good idea of the kind of pronouncements she tends to make on Surrey&#039;s future.  What I&#039;m saying is that actions speak louder than words, and I&#039;ve seen little evidence of practical action in the development process in Surrey. (Perhaps I should steel myself for another visit to Whalley soon. The trauma of my last visit a decade ago has almost healed.)

I&#039;m willing to admit that Watts may even be sincere in her stated desire for a revamped approach to development and growth. Sadly, if she is, trying to stop those long-held, typical Surrey growth patterns will be tantamount to trying to stop a runaway freight train with a butterfly net made of dental floss. I wish her luck.
gmgw</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Geller:<br />
&#8220;&#8230;this statement is most unfair and demonstrates considerable ignorance of the recent politics in the city&#8230;&#8221;<br />
Hate to disappoint you, but as I&#8217;ve said several times in these fora, I spend a day or two in Surrey at least every two weeks and sometimes more often, thanks to the fact that my elderly mother-in-law lives in Ocean Park. While there, media junkie that I am, I usually go through her recycling box and catch up with the local rags, the &#8220;Surrey Now&#8221; and the &#8220;Peace Arch News&#8221;. I look especially for news on development and planning trends, as even in the wake of Ms. Watts&#8217; elevation to power, the same pave-over-the-pastures-and-let&#8217;s-slap-up-another-Canadian-Tire-outlet approach to planning that has characterized Surrey since I started those regular visits more than 25 years ago is much in evidence. </p>
<p>Admittedly I spend little time in North and central Surrey; they give me the horrors. Most of my time in South Surrey, where there are still large tracts of farmland and second-growth forest. This has the unfortunate effect of making the ongoing tsunami of unchecked development even more apparent; those fields and forests are shrinking almost daily as the malls and condos grow by leaps and bounds. It&#8217;s still an overwhlemingly car-oriented city: more malls, more roads, more cul-de-sacs, more traffic. And autombile-driven densification is picking up the pace. Driving along 16th Avenue east of Highway 99, it seems like every second acreage you pass has either a &#8220;for sale&#8221; or development permit sign on it.  </p>
<p>I know that Watts talks a good line about managed growth, Michael; for a year or so after she was elected, the Now and the News hung on her every word, and her golden mug was on their front pages in four-part colour every week. So I have a good idea of the kind of pronouncements she tends to make on Surrey&#8217;s future.  What I&#8217;m saying is that actions speak louder than words, and I&#8217;ve seen little evidence of practical action in the development process in Surrey. (Perhaps I should steel myself for another visit to Whalley soon. The trauma of my last visit a decade ago has almost healed.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m willing to admit that Watts may even be sincere in her stated desire for a revamped approach to development and growth. Sadly, if she is, trying to stop those long-held, typical Surrey growth patterns will be tantamount to trying to stop a runaway freight train with a butterfly net made of dental floss. I wish her luck.<br />
gmgw</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Weiss</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/uncategorized/surrey-vancouvers-forgotten-sister-gets-a-splash/comment-page-1/#comment-18231</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Weiss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2551#comment-18231</guid>
		<description>In 20 years, will Surrey be to Vancouver as Brooklyn is to Manhattan now? Or will it be more like Queens to Manhattan? Just a thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In 20 years, will Surrey be to Vancouver as Brooklyn is to Manhattan now? Or will it be more like Queens to Manhattan? Just a thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Urbanismo</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/uncategorized/surrey-vancouvers-forgotten-sister-gets-a-splash/comment-page-1/#comment-18226</link>
		<dc:creator>Urbanismo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2551#comment-18226</guid>
		<description>Not THE Frank Murphy?  My Nanaimo friend?  

 . . . of our Jamie Lerner attempts to wake this little town up, late of Barcelona, indeed I thought you were still in Europe . . . 

Wanna talk Sandstone?  Cable Bay?  Nanaimo&#039;s world class sprawl . . . . 

Hey let&#039;s get together . . . excuse us folks we have a bit of catching up to do . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not THE Frank Murphy?  My Nanaimo friend?  </p>
<p> . . . of our Jamie Lerner attempts to wake this little town up, late of Barcelona, indeed I thought you were still in Europe . . . </p>
<p>Wanna talk Sandstone?  Cable Bay?  Nanaimo&#8217;s world class sprawl . . . . </p>
<p>Hey let&#8217;s get together . . . excuse us folks we have a bit of catching up to do . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/uncategorized/surrey-vancouvers-forgotten-sister-gets-a-splash/comment-page-1/#comment-18224</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2551#comment-18224</guid>
		<description>From Nanaimo (hi Roger) one looks at Surrey&#039;s attempt to reinvent itself with something approaching envy. Here (a google search puts our population density at 881/sq km to Surrey&#039;s 1245/sq km) we&#039;ve eliminated our urban containment boundary and approved development of the greenfields in our southern extremity. A destination golf course, big box stores, sprawling residential. Something stops progressive 21st century urbanism from crossing the Strait.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Nanaimo (hi Roger) one looks at Surrey&#8217;s attempt to reinvent itself with something approaching envy. Here (a google search puts our population density at 881/sq km to Surrey&#8217;s 1245/sq km) we&#8217;ve eliminated our urban containment boundary and approved development of the greenfields in our southern extremity. A destination golf course, big box stores, sprawling residential. Something stops progressive 21st century urbanism from crossing the Strait.</p>
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		<title>By: Booge</title>
		<link>http://www.francesbula.com/uncategorized/surrey-vancouvers-forgotten-sister-gets-a-splash/comment-page-1/#comment-18213</link>
		<dc:creator>Booge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.francesbula.com/?p=2551#comment-18213</guid>
		<description>Urban well being and unregulated Monster homes don&#039;t mix. Watts has no credibility. Sorry to say but Surrey has no future at being a well-designed Suburban/Urban mix. Her pedigree is sown in her genes: What ye sow, ye shall reap</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Urban well being and unregulated Monster homes don&#8217;t mix. Watts has no credibility. Sorry to say but Surrey has no future at being a well-designed Suburban/Urban mix. Her pedigree is sown in her genes: What ye sow, ye shall reap</p>
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