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Why you should be wary of stories saying “census proves rich Asians live in mansions and pay no taxes”

October 29th, 2015 · 44 Comments

Someone sent a question to my blog a few weeks ago, asking what I thought of the then-recent news stories saying that census information indicated that areas with wealthy Asians were reporting low incomes and/or housing costs exceeding their incomes and therefore must be avoiding taxes in some illegal way. (And maybe even collecting welfare to boot!)

Links to the stories here, here and here, which varied in how cautious they were about these stats, if you can access these.

It’s taken a while to do the research, with my two day jobs and all, but here I am.

Okay, there will be a lot of nerd stuff later on and many references to dissemination areas and census tracts and rate of return.

But, for those of you with lives to live, here’s the short answer.

The two researchers whose numbers and maps have been used as the basis of those stories say, in essence, “It’s wrong to jump to those quick conclusions.”

There may be evidence out there that someone will find someday to confirm the dark suspicions that wealthy mainland Chinese are immigrating here, using Canadian services but avoiding Canadian taxes. This census information isn’t that evidence.

(Neither, by the way, are stories of this or that proven case of unreported foreign income, any more than stories about wealthy white Canadians hiding their money in offshore trusts on the Isle of Man proof that all wealthy white Canadians are crooks. But that’s for another day.)

Why it’s dangerous to draw inferences too quickly

 To put it in the words of one of them, Jens von Bergmann: ”It’s tricky to make substantive claims based on maps showing geographic overlap of immigration from China and poverty and these maps need more explanation than I have been willing to put in the map descriptions.”

He said he wishes now that he had put more cautions alongside his maps when he tweeted them out. Von Bergmann’s delightful and rabbit-hole seductive site that colour-codes census information onto maps is here: censusmapper.ca

Besides von Bergmann, UBC prof Daniel Hiebert also said it’s premature come up with definitive conclusions just by looking at a couple of variables from the census information. (And three other stats specialists I talked to said the same and added more qualifiers.)

“There are cautionary tales around the whole project,” said Hiebert, who listed off several reasons why people living in expensive areas might be reporting low income.

Hiebert didn’t actually do a study on wealthy Asians declaring low incomes, by the way, as some might have inferred from the coverage.

He did a study published in August about ethnic enclaves in Canada. He found that enclaves are becoming more prevalent, but that they are generally not low-income, marginalized ghettos. Instead, he reported on many positives: immigrants are becoming homeowners at surprisingly high rates, those in enclaves are less dependent on government payments, and the enclaves work as springboards for new immigrants into Canadian society.

He did include maps that combined information from census-tract data on enclaves and high levels of poverty (more than 30 per cent of people in the area classified as low income). His study is here.

You can also look at the maps Stats Canada produced showing which census tracts across the country showed high levels of poverty.

As you’ll see if you read on to my most wonkish and detailed section at the end, there are many census tracts in wealthy areas that have a high proportion of Chinese or Asian residents and are NOT reporting unusual levels of poverty.

There are also wealthy areas reporting high levels of poverty and with a lot of new Chinese immigrants, but where there are also a lot of renters or people in subsidized housing.

We sometimes forget how many basement suites, special-needs homes, and social housing are secretly sprinkled around the city, even in the poshest areas. Even in the four census tracts that are, generally, well-off Dunbar, the proportion of renters ranges from 19 to 23 per cent.

I’ll also list all the reasons later people gave me about why these numbers need more scrutiny, ranging from “this isn’t tax-return information so we don’t actually know what taxes were paid” to the usual cautions about all of this data because it comes from, guess what, the long-form census. But in the meantime …

Something is going on that we’d like to look more closely at

That isn’t to say anyone dismisses the possibility that there is something odd happening. The two researchers do say the incidence of high poverty rates in some unexpected areas, which happens in Toronto also, with high immigrant (often Chinese) populations is interesting and worthy of further analysis.

Hiebert calls it non-commonsensical and says he’s undertaking research on the puzzling stats. Von Bergmann says he hopes university researchers, who have powers and budgets greater than his, will request the kind of fine-grained stats searches that might yield some answers. For those not in the stats know, Stats Canada can be requested to do searches that combine various items (called crosstabs), like household income, ethnicity, length of time in Canada, age, etc., to get a true read on what is happening in census tracts showing unusual patterns. That shows true correlations, which amateur scanning of maps for crude correlations does not. You have to pay for those cross-tabs, so it’s generally something only people with funding — municipal governments, university researchers, etc. — do.

The reasons why the numbers could be wrong

Okay, that was my sort of quick answer. Now for more detailed info, in two stages.

First, the reasons researchers gave me in general for why to be wary about the census numbers behind those maps. (Later, a close look at some of the areas that were identified as high-poverty, high-Chinese and in unexpected parts of the city.)

Category 1: The data is problematic

  1. This census information is based on the National Household Survey, aka the long-form census. It is not Canada Revenue Agency information. (That’s available elsewhere, in great detail.) We don’t know what anyone actually declared as their income on their tax forms and we don’t know what taxes they paid. All the NHS has is what respondents wrote on the form as their income.
  2. All this information comes from, of course, the now-voluntary long-form census, making it less reliable than the old census and more easily skewed if certain groups are over- or under-represented. Census tract areas that I looked at were in the range of 1,500 or so households. That means the long-form census went to 500 households (one in three) approximately in any census tract. Response rates ranged from 50 to 90 per cent in different areas of the Lower Mainland. That could mean as few as 250 non-random households are representing the whole 1,500. That would be fine if the responses were random, but as researchers have noted, certain groups tend to be less likely to have completed their long-form census questionnaires. Dissemination areas, which is what von Bergmann’s maps used, are even smaller and therefore more subject to the pitfalls of limited, non-random data.
  3. The questions on income in the very lengthy long-form census come at the end. People filling out the form sometimes give up before the end. That means income information is the least reliable. As well, one stats specialist pointed out to me that the NHS asked people to state their 2010 income and their 2011 housing costs.
  4. It seems implausible, a couple of stats analysis suggested, that someone trying to hide income would be motivated to fill out the long-form census at all.
  5. This real-estate blogger also raised some other questions about the inferences related to the “people paying more for housing than they earn in income” conclusions. He’s not the only one. No one really understands how anyone, whether rich or poor, manages to spend more on housing than they have in income. It makes marginally more sense among the wealthy, who may be living off their wealth or have jobs that pay a lot in one year but not so much in the next and the census happened to catch them in the low year.

Category 2: Just because someone is reporting low income doesn’t mean they’re breaking the law or deliberately avoiding taxes

  1. An accountant I talked to and several others noted that reporting low income doesn’t mean you’re lying about your wealth. Wealth is different from income. You pay tax on income, but not wealth. There have been people who’ve moved here with considerable assets, enough to live on. (Of course, if invested, that would generate some taxable income, but who knows how people are using their assets.)
  2. The same accountant I talked to noted that there is nothing illegal or fraudulent about having, say, a father who remains as a non-resident of Canada and doesn’t report his income there, while the wife and children live here, supported by money sent by the dad. We might not like it, but it’s not any more illegal than, say, Canadian retirees who pack up and move to Mexico or Thailand for 20 years, declare themselves non-residents, avoid paying Canadian taxes on their incomes for those two decades, and then move back in their 80s when they need Canadian health care.

Category 3: The perfectly legal tax-avoidance mechanism that no one seems to know about

          One interesting aspect of tax policy I discovered while trying to learn more about this issue is that the Canadian government had, until December 2014, a specific policy that allowed (and I’d say encouraged) wealthy immigrants to put their money into an offshore trust for five years after arriving, precisely so they could avoid paying high Canadian taxes. Again, we may not like it, but this was something that our government promoted.

Several researchers and accountants I talked to had never heard of this policy, which makes me guess it was only well-known within a small community – would-be wealthy immigrants and their lawyers and accountants. (Below a couple million in assets and there wasn’t really a point in setting them up.)

As you can see from these older links here, here, and here, these immigrant offshore trusts were promoted as a distinct advantage to extremely wealthy clients.  “Five-year tax holiday” was the headline on one adviser’s site.

From what I can gather, permitting these trusts put Canada on an equal footing with the UK in being able to attract wealthy immigrants.

And there were many warnings in late 2014 and early 2015 about what the impact might be on their elimination, along with some general hand-wringing by law and accounting firms.

Again, it seems like this policy was only known in limited circles.

Boring down to the census tracts

 I don’t claim to do the kind of detailed research that a university professor paid to do this kind of thing has done. But I did take the trouble to spend a few hours looking closely at some of the census tracts identified as anomalous.

Richmond

A number of census tracts in north-central Richmond indicate more than 30 per cent of households are considered low income. In some stories, these areas were described as neighbourhoods of “mansions.”

The mansion part is true on the far west side of Richmond, the areas that nudge up against the dike. But it’s less true for north-central Richmond. I drove there weekly every year for 15 years to teach at Kwantlen, then a college, between Garden City and No. 3 Road. I’m pretty familiar with the area. It’s a mix of older split-levels, some frankly crummy looking bungalows, a lot of 1970s-era apartments, and, increasingly, new condos, as well as some newer houses.

I looked at one census tract area, 9330148.00, between No. 2 and 3 Road, and between River Road and Granville. That’s the area the furthest west of the low-income-reporting districts, the closest to the true mansion areas. It has 8,125 people living there, with almost a third of them having immigrated in the 10 years between 2001 and 2011. Many immigrants are from China, Honk Kong, and Taiwan, but almost 700 are Filipino. This area reported 38 per cent of households were “low income,” by the Stats Can definition.

The median value of a dwelling in 2011 was $449,876, half of the median value of homes in the areas to the west. Just over 40 per cent of the respondents were renters. The proportion of tenants in subsidized housing: 20 per cent.

Wealthy Asians living in mansions? You decide.

Vancouver-Oakridge

This census tract 9330010.02, just east of Granville in what I’d call upper Marpole. (49th to 57th, Granville to Cambie.) It had 34 per cent of households defined as low income, and 79 per cent called said they were Chinese. It showed up as both an ethnic enclave and a low-income tract in Hiebert’s maps. Renters were 43 per cent of the population of 710 of the 1,635 households were renters. Seven per cent of tenants were in subsidized housing.

Vancouver-Arbutus Ridge

There are two census tracts here. The one with the little curve in it, 9330027.02, is the most interesting. It’s in the curvy-streets area around Prince of Wales high school, generally bounded by Trafalgar, Maple, 37th, and 27thish. One of von Bergmann’s maps shows that it had the highest number of immigrants from China arrive 2006-2011 of any census tract in the Lower Mainland. In total, only 1,440 of the 3,865 people living there identify as non-immigrants.

Almost one-third of households are low income, say NHS stats. About 21 per cent of households are renters, and two-thirds of them spend more than 30 per cent of their income on housing. Ten per cent are in subsidized housing. Of the people defined as low-income, 39 per cent of them are under 18, which is a strikingly high number. (The non-response rate for the long-form census here, by the way, was 27.2 per cent.)

There’s something happening in this area but what? Is this where a big group of wealthy immigrants with legal offshore trusts arrived? Are there renter families, classified as low-income, with huge numbers of children? Is it possible there is a bunch of under-18s living on their own, with income being transferred from abroad, while they go to school in Vancouver? We await answers

There’s a second census tract right next door to this one, just south of it, 9330022.00. That is even stranger. But not really when you look at it closely. It’s the little rectangle bounded by 37th, 41st, Trafalgar and Arbutus. This has a 34-per-cent low-income rate for its households, which seems odd for the west side indeed. But a quarter of the people living here are renters and a quarter, not necessarily the same quarter, are seniors. But then, I realize as I look at the map, this is the cluster of apartment buildings just north of Kerrisdale Village. So it makes sense in the end.

Some might say, well, Frances just went cherry-picking looking for contradictions or things that proved her thesis. That’s right, a person could say that. And the same could be said for people who came up with the other interpretations of these maps. That’s why it’s probably best to wait for the experts to do this stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Categories: Uncategorized

  • Ted Dantoncal

    Vancouver…one of the lowest income cities in North America and highest real estate prices…. vancouver likely has the highest percentage of people involved in illegal activity on the continent

  • Internet made me obsolete

    Surely that’s an over-statement.Sounds like somebody has been suckered once too often. Regrettable, but it takes two: huckster plus rube.

    My advice? Trust but verify.

  • Mike

    This is great, Frances. Thanks for putting this together.

  • Mike

    You seem to be implying that it’s the renters who are the low income residents when they are likely to be reporting a higher income than the people who own the mansions in these census areas.

    Renting does not equal low income.

  • Kirk

    Yep, no one has good info. That is what the whole “Give Us Data” movement is all about. Personally, I don’t think hard numbers are really important. Anecdotal is good enough for me. It’s like someone saying there’s no official proof that there’s a lot of Aussies in Whistler. Who needs hard numbers? There’s obviously a lot of them. Are millennial parents neurotic and hover over their kids? Are there hipsters on Main St? Well, we don’t have accurate numbers for that either.

    So, have a lot of wealthy Chinese moved into Vancouver? Yeah, duh. You don’t need to ask the census takers. Just look around. The shops and stores have figured it out. Are they paying taxes? Dunno. As neighbourhoods like Dunbar and Oakridge gentrify (i.e. rich people getting displaced by even richer people), are reported income returns trending up or down? Is the tax base in those neighbourhoods growing or shrinking?

  • francesbula

    Actually, sadly, it does increasingly equal low income. David Hulchanski has been studying this for years. Owners and renters used to be sort in the same economic band. They’ve been growing apart for decades. This is just one example.http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/renters-lose-ground-to-homeowners/article4151353/

  • Silly Season

    Add this to the ‘anecdotal’ (circumstantial?0 pile: I rent in Kerridale, in the exact tract identified here as ‘Vancouver-Arbutus’. While I am not a millionaire, and I can certainly find a few units in my building and others in the ‘hood where there are seniors on fixed incomes or where there may be someone who is struggling financially— I can also tell you that in my building alone,
    at least 5 couples are renting as they await completion of their new homes.

    So while ‘renters’ on the whole across the city may be getting poorer as opposed to their home owning friends, it may also be possible that renters in the areas identified in this article are not. That may be in part due to the geography of where these buildings—older though they may be—are located. The rental prices of a one bedroom here in older, well kept buildings like mine are not onerous for a working person (versus the insane rents for new one bedrooms), but the pricing is definitely geared to the working professional or people who reside here temporarily as a way station before they move into higher priced units or sf homes. Trust me, people tell you all about themselves as they fold underwear in the laundry room. :-)

    I also think that the article touches on what has got to be a sore point to so many who do pay their income taxes: that the ‘non resident for purposes of taxation’ designation is frankly, an abomination. Global income tax on income and savings whether you live here full time or not is not too much a price to pay for the value of Canadian citizenship. Parking a family here in order to ‘qualify’ or alternatively, going to live in a nicer climate for more than 6 months a year and then expecting to come back for your medical after not paying your fair share into the system is just insane. I too would love to live in Mexico for a few years, but to declare my ‘non residency’ in order to pay no taxes and then expect to be welcomed back into the bosum of the Canadian health care system with no responsibility to pay into it–is that the kind of country we are building here?

    So, away with the ‘trusts’, the ‘non resident’ stuff. Make it easier for data (and tax) collectors re: money matters. Tie your banking, rental and home purchases and taxable income and saving all up into one onto your personal income tax form. And then see where where things do and don’t add up.

  • gasp

    The first census tract you described, #9330027.02, has been one of the main targets for the mainland Chinese for the past 5-6 years. Virtually every house sold by a long time owner is purchased by a mainland Chinese investor immigrant and is then destroyed (along with all the trees and landscaping) to build a new Asian inspired mansion with associated 4 car garage, which is then flipped to another mainland Chinese “investor” for a $1-2 million tax-free profit. IF anyone ever lives in these newly built mansions, it is usually a teenager, university student or elderly caretaker.

    How do I know all this? I’ve lived in the area for 35 years and have watched in dismay as this once beautiful middle class family area has been transformed into a showpiece for mainland Chinese wealth, without any attempt by these new owners and residents to give to or to be part of the country or the community.

  • Everyman

    It’s obvious to anyone who lives around PW that the old “stash the wife in Canada while the kids go to school” is the main demographic driver. Maybe the VSB should divert money away from schools like it and Churchill to help squelch offshore demand for housing.

  • peakie

    Centred on 33rd and Arbutus, south of Eddington/Nanton east of Trafalgar, west of the CPR/Arbutus rail line.
    1 sq km with 1537 dwellings in and 1385 private dwellings “occupied by usual residents” (census term). Total population 4027, 1095 under 19.
    875 residents with Chinese/Cantonese, 750 with Mandarin, 5 with Dutch, 35 with German, 20 with Greek, 40 with Japanese, 245 with Korean, 35 with Persian, 15 with Romanian, 30 with Tagalog. (you can see they are rounding with 0 and 5 for “anonymization”
    But 475 don’t speak Official Languages (Eng, Fre), 3310 speak English as first official language.
    http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/dp-pd/prof/details/page_Map_Carte_Detail.cfm?Lang=E&G=1&Geo1=CT&Code1=2447&Geo2=CMA&Code2=933&Data=Count&SearchText=9330027.02&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=&TABID=3&geocode=2447

    Data table link in upper right corner

  • Kathy Tomlinson

    Hi Frances. All good and interesting points. FYI and for your readers – the data the Globe cited on reported income levels came from a detailed breakdown of income levels in Dunbar – reported directly to the CRA – which is available from Stats Can, as you point out. We did not use info from the long form census, which is less accurate when looking at taxation. Also, the census info is from 2011, so somewhat outdated.
    More importantly, we extracted data on income levels only for “couple families” – which excludes single renters. We also excluded seniors. In Dunbar, one quarter of all “couple families” – again excluding seniors, singles and single parents – reported income of less than $35,000 to the CRA in 2013 (the last year available). That is the only data we cited on reported income levels, because we felt it was significant information.

  • Norman12

    I wish we could make every investor immigrant, regardless of country of origin, to prove how they accumulated their wealth.

  • francesbula

    I’m curious how you would get that kind of financial information from those households. My impression is that people are so resentful of the newcomers that they’ll barely say hello, let alone get to know them well enough to have intimate knowledge of their household economics or who is where.

  • Bill_McCreery

    Agreed Frances, more factual information is essential to fully fix this very central issue with respect to the health of our neighbourhoods, and well as ensuring that the taxman gets his due. Having said that, it’s obvious that there are two serious problems that need resolution sooner than later.

    1) As you’ve pointed out the offshore investor programme is full of holes. All people must pay their fair share of taxes. Although better information would be helpful, holes are holes. They must be fixed. So far the Province and the Feds haven’t stepped up to the plate, perhaps Justin can prod Christy into action. To date Gregor Robertson is the only one who’s showing real leadership here.

    2) A healthy neighbourhood is more than the negative impacts of empty houses, albeit this is a very in your face consequence, especially when you live there. People have told me that obvious things like non-English only shop signs, as well as, the sheer numbers who don’t speak English in public places make them feel that they’re not part of the community. Long time residents are deciding to move away for primarily those reasons.

    Your colleague Kathy’s article has captured a big part of the despair that’s out there:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/vancouver-house-buying-frenzy-leaves-half-empty-neighbourhoods/article27056534/

    Then there’s the extended impacts such as the extra load placed on the school system and social services from single or no parent families, the extra attention a teacher, with no support help must give to ESL students (not untypically 16 out of a class of 24 students as well as 2 to 4 special needs, some also ESL) and then when the teacher gets the wee one the first one or two thresholds up the ESL ladder, the parents decide to go back to China for 6 weeks for Chinese New Year. By the time the tot returns he/she’s back to the beginning (the big losers are the other kids because the teacher can’t focus on their needs), and the tot’s missed 6 full weeks of school.

    These impacts could be dealt with but, the Province has cut support staff funding and increased social worker and school councillor case loads past the breaking point already. In addition, the sheer ESL numbers make coping even more difficult.

    So it’s obvious there’s a very serious and far reaching series of problems and shortcomings here. Canadians are once again constipating themselves with our legendary political correctness. The result after +/-4 years of this issue surfacing is that we (the governments) haven’t even started to decide to look at the data.

    Further procrastination will simply make the neighbourhoods and the taxman (read: all of us) less healthy and more out of pocket. At some point the stress levels will reach the limit of tolerance and then some very unpleasant things will start to happen. Let’s create a regimen where we can really get to know and live happily our new neighbours. To do so political leadership is essential. That leadership must:

    1) decide to move forward;

    2) fix the obvious fixables and

    3) get the data and then complete the job.

  • gasp

    In my view, the City set the stage for the proliferation of “mansions” now replacing traditional single family houses by amending the zoning to allow for monster houses on every single family zoned property. Ostensibly this was done to allow for basement suites, but most of these new mansions aren’t even suitable for basement suites, let alone real families!

  • Internet made me obsolete

    People aren’t ignoring allegations of tax-avoiding immigrant (i.e.Chinese) home-owners out of political correctness. They ignore those allegations because those matters are none of their business. First let’s see the data on McCreery’s financial affairs, how much he makes and how much he pays in taxes. then we can turn our attention to others.

    Spare us the “poor, over-worked teachers” sob story. One of those ESL kids gets started up the “ESL ladder”, then the teacher takes 8 weeks off for summer break.

    One senses a strong whiff of bigotry in this posting. Anyone who has a serious problem with Chinese being spoken in public or Chinese advertising or Chinese neighbours is displaying the very kind of intolerance and xenophobia McCreery expresses in his rather chilling and threatening assertion that ” some very unpleasant things will start to happen”. They’ve already started and his posting is a prime example.

    Vancouver’s long and shameful history of discrimination and prejudice towards the Chinese (and other non-white minorities) refuses to die

  • peakie

    And there is the confirming study by Doug Todd in the Weekend Vancouver Sun on diversity means in Burnaby with a last mapping project by former reporter Chad Skelton highlighted on “chance” of meeting 2 different cultures in various Lower Mainland tracts.

    Renters and poor, immigrants in Burnaby Edmonds for example.

    http://www.vancouversun.com/life/there+diversity+then+there+super+diversity+burnaby+style/11482044/story.html?google_editors_picks=true

  • A Taxpayer

    Anytime someone wants to talk about the issues of multiculturalism there is always someone ready to try to shut it down shouting bigotry, intolerance, xenophobia, racism…

    Bill McCreery is right about our political correctness and we need to have an open discussion about how we embrace multiculturalism. Yes, we are a long way from the disaster that is Sweden but we can learn from their mistakes in taking a laissez-faire approach to multiculturalism.

  • Bill_McCreery

    Dear Obsolete,

    Your comments come as no surprise. I think if you look carefully, my comments are not racist, they’re an attempt to deal pragmatically with perceived and/or obvious problems in the matter at hand. Your suggestion that people “… ignore those allegations because those matters are none of their business” makes no sense. If there is a problem with any person not paying their fair share of taxes, or the government allowing same to ignore that is irrational in a democratic society.

    The Feds have created a tax haven regime that, based on experience, seems to be unfair. Should that regime not be fine tuned at this point? This has little to do with those paying the taxes, but those making the rules.

    Obsolete, you obviously know absolutely nothing about teaching. Again, the School Boards allow parents to take their kids out for as much as 6 weeks. The consequences of that for an ESL child are these:

    1) the child misses 6 weeks of instruction, and because learning is a building block kind of thing, if some of the blocks are missing future blocks will not be fully realized;

    2) he/she gets out of the daily classroom rhythm (it takes a teacher a couple of months at the beginning of each year to establish that);

    3) daily rhythm includes children’s interactions with each other (these things have to be learned for the young ones);

    4) ESL kids do start slowly up the ladder and as time goes on they can progress more quickly; if that’s seriously interrupted he/she goes back to the beginning; this slows the child’s ability to learn generally and also interferes with their interactions with the other children.

    School Boards should re-examine this policy by asking from the child’s perspective, are these outcomes beneficial or not to the child’s education? From the teacher’s point of view they should consider what additional load this puts on him/her; is this interfering with the teacher’s ability to teach the other 23 kids?

    Please reread my comment Obsolete, I was expressing what many others have said, not my own opinion. Richmond has started to deal with the sign matter and I gather with some success.

    For me, I enjoy multiculturalism. I work, play and am related to people of different ethnicities. I go out of my way to do so. I also believe that it is essential to deal with matters of public concern in a matter of fact way.

  • gasp

    This has nothing to do with discrimination or prejudice towards the Chinese – it has to do with whether the people taking advantage of Canada’s education and social services are paying their fair share of INCOME TAXES. And that is the business of every tax-paying citizen, since every tax evader means the rest of us pay more than our fair share.

    If someone comes to Canada from ANY country, and can afford to buy and live in a multi-million dollar house, then they can afford to educate their own children in Canada’s official languages so that their children can function in Canadian society.

    As a taxpayer, I believe this support for ESL education to children of wealthy foreign parents should stop – these parents can and should pay the cost themselves. That way the education system may have enough money to Canadian children with special needs, who are continually being shortchanged.

  • boohoo

    lol yikes. Your point re education is a stark example of your ignorance of that topic.

  • Everyman

    This post just shows how much Disqus sucks in not allowing a “thumbs down”.

  • A Taxpayer

    From 2) above the issue is broader than just the issue of tax avoidance, it is also about to what extent should new Canadians be expected to integrate. Language is pretty fundamental in building a community.

  • penguinstorm

    “Politicians use statistics in the same way that a drunk uses lamp-posts—for support rather than illumination.” – Andrew Lang

    This applies equally to people complaining about real estate costs in Vancouver.

  • Jack

    “To date Gregor Robertson is the only one who’s showing real leadership here.”

    Pardon me whilst I wipe up the coffee I just spit out when I read that. Gregor has done exactly like Gregor always does – deflect, blame other levels of gov’t, and then finally change his goals.

    End homelessness, I mean end street homelessness, I mean… uh let’s just forget all about it (when homelessness actually went up rather than down).

    Happily he won’t be around when the time comes, or “Greenest city in 2020” would become “One of the greenest cities in 2020” and then finally “uh let’s just forget all about it (when it’s shown Vancouver ranks near the bottom).

    Gregor’s one and only commitment is to the developers that got him elected.

  • Bill_McCreery

    Don’t disagree, but at least he’s talking about it? Province & Federal parties avoided the issue like the plague. Wouldn’t dealing with this be an important part of a national housing strategy, you’d think.

    What’s NPA and Green positions? The present media release 2 days before Council of the decision that’s already been made, that the media has completely bought into, prevents the opposition from being heard across the board, not just on this issue.

  • jenables

    ??? I wouldn’t say so… These people complaining suffer the effects of bad policy. Would you buy your home for what it’s worth now?

  • penguinstorm

    Implicit in your statement is the fact that policy drives housing prices. That’s an overly simplistic view, and I’d like to assume that you’re smart enough to know that.

    Regardless: the short, non-snarky answer to your question is “You have no choice.” It’s actually the classic problem: sell your house for a profit, good times. Now you need to buy a new one–if you’re buying in the same neighbourhood the profit is probably meaningless because you’re going to pay roughly the same price.

    Now, all those people I konw who sold houses in Surrey and then moved to Summerland to retire? They made out like gangbusters.

  • Richard Wittstock

    I read your post:

    “How do I know all this? I’ve lived in the area for 35 years and have watched in dismay as this once beautiful middle class family area has been transformed into a showpiece for mainland Chinese wealth, without any attempt by these new owners and residents to give to or to be part of the country or the community.”

    and beg to differ with the statement that this has nothing to do with discrimination or prejudice. You’re trying to deflect…income tax is a smokescreen here. You are clearly making a value judgement (“dismay”) about the way your new neighbours like to live, that it is inconsistent with what you’re used to and the way things used to be in your neighbourhood and you don’t like it.

    Further, how do you know how much tax your new neighbours are paying, how much they give in charitable donations etc?

    Sorry to say, but in an open society and a city that is a magnet for immigration, neighbourhoods are going to change, often more quickly than we are comfortable with.

  • Bill_McCreery

    Richard, why is not being happy with living beside empty houses that, at least to gasp’s taste do not represent his values, racist? Many people share his feelings, but at the same time they work and socialise with people from different cultures daily. I doubt gasp knows how much tax or donations any of his acquaintances or neighbours pay regardless of where they’re from. Do you?

    And perhaps when discussing the components of healthy neighbourhoods, we should include the diminishing viability of local businesses due to the reduction in their customer base. None of this has anything whatsoever to do with racism.

  • Richard Wittstock

    Bill, on the one hand you’re saying the schools are now full of ESL kids, and on the other hand you’re saying all the houses are empty. Which is it?

    gasp made the generalization “without any attempt by these new owners and residents to give to or to be part of the country or the community.”

    In my world a statement like that is a disgusting load of crap. I thought we were above this kind of thing. I can tell you one thing for certain, that my kids’ Asian classmates’ parents are extremely generous when it comes to donating money to our school; they on average give a multiple of what the Caucasian parents give.

    Maybe the problem with many of the local businesses is that they are tired old vestiges of the 1990s that aren’t even relevant to the declining incumbent Caucasian local market anymore, never mind the new demographic in the area? That’s certainly my take on Kerrisdale, Point Grey and Dunbar. Also: it wouldn’t hurt for the commercial landlords to invest some money in their crappy old buildings to make them more appealing to potential new tenants.

  • Bill_McCreery

    Agreed Richard, from my own knowledge, many Asian, as well as other newcomer parents, are excellent participants and contributors, and their beautiful, bright, delightful children, via the efforts of their parents combined with dedicated school staff, are, along with their parents, becoming very positive members of Canadian society.

    You’re also quite right, it is important to be as precise as we can when we’re discussing sensitive matters such as this one.

    On the other side of this discussion there are many who have genuine uncomfortable feelings with what they experience in their own neighbourhoods on a daily basis. While there are many newcomers who are consciously trying to ‘fit in’, and who want the best for their children, as we all do, there are as well, many empty houses (more in some neighbourhoods no doubt then others) in addition to the other consequences of large numbers of newcomers that are causing this unease.

    It’s best if we can see that both sides of this issue are important and have validity. Dismissing peoples concerns will not resolve this problem, it’ll only make it worse.

    As I’ve said above, let’s create a regimen where we can really get to know and live happily our new neighbours. To do so political leadership is essential. And that political leadership needs to get us the facts to help better understand the true issues in addition to providing a better understanding, and therefore, acceptance of each other. And perhaps if some of the obvious loopholes Frances has documented are improved, maybe a climate can be created to encourage these empty houses to come alive again. We’ll all benefit.

  • gasp

    You have no idea what you’re talking about.

    First, the failure to pay income tax is not a smokescreen that I’m somehow inventing. It is a fact that many of the people who have come here on investor immigrant status do not even file income tax returns in this country, let alone pay tax here, as the Canadian government acknowledged when they cancelled that program. However, that pales in comparison to the outright tax evasion and money laundering that is being committed by the mainland Chinese through their residential real estate transactions in this country. Perhaps that’s why the CRA is now starting to investigate those who have been engaging in these activities.

    As far as my “dismay” is concerned, it is because I see the destruction all around me of the beautiful houses, gardens and safe community that previous residents built, for no reason other than the greed of some of this country’s most recent immigrants, who don’t even live in the new monster houses that they are building.

  • Kevin Knox

    “you’ll never visit such a shady , dirty feeling city”

    You really haven’t traveled much, have you.

  • jenables

    Here’s a quote from Frances’ latest post that you may find interesting.

    “And UBC prof David Ley, who has done the most work on trying to understand this phenomenon since it first started to appear in the 1980s, said he also worries that the debate over nationality of money is obscuring the essential problem: the way the Canadian and B.C. governments crafted policy in the ’80s that opened the door for wealthy people from around the world to park their money here, with programs designed to allow them to avoid taxes and with no requirement that they participate fully in Canadian life, taxes, and the social system.”

    You might want to tell David Ley that his view is overly simplistic and you assume he’s smart enough to realise that.

  • Bill_McCreery

    Exactly the point I made here. Politicians can fix the problem now. The arguments about racism and who paid what to who is irrelevant, and may be being used as a smoke screen to do nothing, or perhaps not have to own up to having created the problem in the first place.

    But, we have a new government in Ottawa pledged to do something about this problem. Further research about where the money comes from is not necessary. Just fix the problem sooner than later Justin.

  • penguinstorm

    No you’re right. A booming population (Metro has more than doubled since 1981 but the land mass remains the same) and the associated demand has nothing to do with it.

  • jenables

    If half that increase occurred before 1991, (twenty four years ago) why have housing prices skyrocketed in the last decade particularly? Surrey was a very different place in 1981. You may want to rethink that “not making any more land” trope that applies to every city on the planet. Or keep telling yourself how desirable a very high cost of living coupled with low wages are for your average bear. Supply and demand. Funny how that’s never worked to bring prices down, yet people still reference it as if it applies in a global market.

  • MB

    Putting four or five homes on two standard lots (or any number of other configurations) will always be about a third or more cheaper than maintaining the standard lot with all its inefficiencies.

    That is not a trope.

  • MB

    “People have told me that obvious things like non-English only shop signs, as well as, the sheer numbers who don’t speak English in public places make them feel that they’re not part of the community. Long time residents are deciding to move away for primarily those reasons.”

    I felt the same way when I moved to Strathcona from Alberta 35 years ago and shopped exclusively in Chinatown. However, I saw it as a vibrant and meaningful example of our pluralism and managed to make some great friends there, and became an accepted regular at two cafes where the proprietors preferred tom speak in Cantonese. When approached with an honest attitude of friendship, most newcomers with poor English will brighten and respond accordingly, if haltingly. When treated like unwelcome strangers by xenophobic residents, they will usually respond by becoming more withdrawn and be seen as insular.

    Arrogant home demolitions do not help the conversation, but reaching out does work a good part of the time, if not always. And we must always have an eye on history and recognize that the tables may have turned on how arrogantly and discriminatory Europeans treated the Aboriginals and Chinese who were here first a hundred years ago.

  • MB

    Teachers get 8 UNPAID weeks off due to the way the school system has been structured for eons by government. Of those 8 weeks at least 3 are spent working UNPAID winding down and clearing out the classrooms and finishing the bookwork after the semester ends (vice versa before it starts up again).

    Perhaps you’d have a greater appreciation for teacher if you had to deal with highly disruptive special needs kids and mark papers and exams and develop neutral language for report cards to the wee hours several times a semester.

    ESL teaching is at a lower rung in pay and often has unpredictable hours, notably in fly-by-night private ESL schools. And their “vacations” are often the result of being laid off for weeks at a time when business is slower.

  • MB

    You’re wrong, gasp. The new monster homes are only maxing out the EXISTING zoning. Moreover, the spec builders accept things like fines for cutting down mature trees as a part of doing business because the return is so high.

    There will come a time in the distant future when the city (and most others in the Metro) will have to stop approving a 1:1 replacement of old with new houses and encourage 1:2-1:4, that is, using the increasingly unaffordable land more efficiently by creating more housing.

  • Bill_McCreery

    Agree, but experiences in places like Richmond, where the non-English speakers are in such numbers and have no interest or need to also reach out, is not the same as your smaller, more established Strathcona community experience. Similar linguistic cloistering also goes on in schools.

  • gasp

    Sorry MB, it’s you that’s wrong. About 7-10 years ago City Council changed the zoning for all single family areas in the City, to promote and encourage up to two basement suites, as well as laneway cottages on each single family lot, supposedly as “affordable housing”. Unfortunately the few new laneway cottages and basement suites that have been built pursuant to the change in the allowable FSR are anything but “affordable”. I